Attempt at reconciling free will and determinism

@ghurt3,

Quote:

I also hold that all of our actions are determined by the past, and that anything that has happened çould only have happened that way.

That's a popular belief but it doesn't hold up in the real world.

Lots of people believe that behavior, like belief in a God for example, is totally controlled by what your parents or guardians taught you to believe. The many ardent atheists who were raised by religious parents and at one time fervently believed should convince you that this is false. The reverse scenario also proves the point.

And actually, no one really believes your past explains all your future thoughts and consequent actions. People instinctively know that even if you raised a child from day one to believe that their great great grandfather was made of green cheese, there will come a day when he or she will reject that belief even if they never hear or see any evidence to the contrary.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Aren't you the king of strawman...
A proper account would go at plank scale with a deterministic model for QM fully developed. There are several candidates but none is fully developed yet. Pilot Waves come to mind.

Now you come speaking of parenthood and pseudo sociology for a counter...right...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

So your saying your great, great grandfather was made out of green cheese?

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@Leadfoot,

You just have to pounder on a very simple principle, Do you believe in causation ? Because the pseudo concept you aligned with requires it so you can author your actions on one side. Now from there, how do you reconcile the need for causation between brain n body action and leave behind the environment, the background, the information trading of everything that precedes you and that made you who you are. In my pov you are nothing but a pattern of information in a huge humongous Rubik's cube. Eventually that pattern will repeat itself given enough time rearranges the atoms. Your archetype is eternal as the archetype of any other object with a given information pattern/map. Free you say ??? Sheesh I don't even can start to phantom the actual meaning of the word out of the mundane pragmatical simple minded use that reports our illusory state of mental affairs regarding our compulsory urges (far from free) and the things that counter their realisation in a far vaster more complex world. The word Free is utter rubbish philosophically speaking. This is not just about free will...you see, there is no free anything !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Dude!

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Degrees of freedom is a useful scientific concept.

Human freedom is an important social concept.

Why get rid of useful concepts?

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@ghurt3,

People are internally free and they try to express their freedom. Their will to express it is already a sign of freedom. Why should a determined particle of energy should strive for freedom?

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@Villion,

Villion wrote:

People are internally free and they try to express their freedom. Their will to express it is already a sign of freedom. Why should a determined particle of energy should strive for freedom?

This is like saying a prisoner who desires to be free, IS free because he desires it. Um no.

Or another way to put it. If you desire to fly like a bird without the need for equipment to make it happen, would you suggest that desire makes it happen?

Or how about desiring to stop eating food but expect to continue living?

Everyone desires to be wealthy beyond the necessary scope so they don't have to work a shitty job anymore. Did dimple desire solve that for everyone?

Just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true because you want it to be.

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@Krumple,

A prisoner is in prison for a reason. Yes, he had the "freedom" to commit a crime, but that's because he broke societies rules. Without rules and regulations, we would be living in chaos.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

A prisoner is in prison for a reason. Yes, he had the "freedom" to commit a crime, but that's because he broke societies rules. Without rules and regulations, we would be living in chaos.

I think the person who committed the crime didn't in fact have free will to decide how to act.

I bet most criminals behave under their nature however; we have determined certain behavior to be wrong so that's why we lock them up. Their nature is "wrong".

I believe a criminal has no choice but to be a criminal. They behave accordingly to their own nature which is why they can justify their actions from their point of view.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

I believe a criminal has no choice but to be a criminal

That's exactly why all societies require the police. It's to protect the general population from being robbed and/or killed - and to keep the peace.

Our community has a unique system of protection; our police officers are also firemen; they serve dual responsibilities.

http://abc7news.com/archive/7585273/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnyvale,_California

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Quote:
I believe a criminal has no choice but to be a criminal

That's exactly why all societies require the police. It's to protect the general population from being robbed and/or killed - and to keep the peace.

Our community has a unique system of protection; our police officers are also firemen; they serve dual responsibilities.

Thank you for explaining what police officers and firemen do, I always wondered what they did.

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@cicerone imposter,

Why are our policemen alo the firemen? Do you mean they are firemen like those in the novel 451 Farenheit by Bradbury?

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@Krumple,

Quote:

I think the person who committed the crime didn't in fact have free will to decide how to act.

That kind of flies in the face of what many criminals say when they are speaking honestly and not 'justifying' their actions.

The one's in jail because they were just following their nature are probably there because of some nonsensical laws that society imposes on itself. But it doesn't mean they don't have free will.

You may have said it earlier in the thread but I haven't seen where you stated what the basic reason you think we lack free will. Would you state that here for me?

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@Leadfoot,

People believing in their own volition and guilt is not proof of free will.
Culture does that. Just look at general belief systems like, Urban myths, Religions, mainstream ethics, etcaetra, all similar mass cultural manifestations in social context that misslead ppl. Moreover, what ppl do actually regret is not getting to a better judgement, and that is the cause that leads them to believe knowing what they know post factum that they would do otherwise. Obviously this is a fallacy, once you only come to said conclusion a posteriori.

When ppl say it was my fault what they mean is that they miss calculated, not why they miss calculated.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

When ppl say it was my fault what they mean is that they miss calculated, not why they miss calculated.

You are simply wrong. Not that some are not capable of what you said there, but I was talking about people when they are being honest, including with themselves.

People do sometimes come to realize that they did it because they were being selfish, not considering others, lacking courage or empathy, generally being an asshole, etc.

All too few, but we're not talking averages here, we're talking about human nature at its core. We have the free will to override it.

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@Leadfoot,

No one is denying ppl are selfish, n much less they can be aware of it. The point is, was, they coud not avoid it. If you account behaviour to the atom the action was inevitable. This even when you believe there is a draw, indecision on what path to take.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

"Responsability" is a social artefact/construct that works for self condictioning. Not more not less. It is 2016...your naive XX cent view of the world is outdated...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

If you account behaviour to the atom the action was inevitable.

A Clockwork Orange - we are ?

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@Leadfoot,

What is the alternative ? Magic ? Do you even stop to pounder deeply on the mechanics of our world or just take for granted common sense concepts ?...

1 Reply

Attempt at reconciling free will and determinism

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