If only his name was Pete Williams instead of Abdul Artan, eh?

@layman,

I don't offer a solution, LM. I only say we shouldn't abandon our principles for the sake of security.
Say we banned all Muslim immigrants and turned away the refugees, then some fifth generation American named Pete Williams shoots up a school. What then?
That doesn't take care of the Cliven Bundys or the Timothy Mcveighs.
There's a real value in helping the helpless. And if in taking in 1,000 refugees one terrorist gets in, well that's the price.
The FBI and others already have their eye on things in ways we probably don't even know about.
Maybe we should plant spies within the Mosques.

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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jun/24/majority-of-fatal-attacks-on-us-soil-carried-out-b/
By Maggie Ybarra - The Washington Times - Wednesday, June 24, 2015
In the 14 years since the Sept. 11 terror attacks, nearly twice as many people have been killed in the United States by white supremacists and anti-government radicals than by Muslim jihadis, according to a new study.
White supremacists and anti-government radicals have killed 48 Americans, including last week’s deadly attack in South Carolina, versus 26 killings by Muslim radicals, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.
New America program associate David Sterman said the study shows that white supremacy and anti-government idealists are a major problem, that their growth rate needs to be addressed and that there is an “ignored threat” woven in the fabric of American society.
“Each time it [right-wing, radical violence] comes up, there’s a tendency to dismiss it as lone actor, mental health issues,” he said. “So it’s important to not ignore threats,”
The suspect in last week’s slaughter of nine people inside a Charleston church, Dylann Roof, 21, had posted a manifesto that lays out a racist worldview, posted pictures online featuring white supremacist imagery and a T-shirt featuring the number “88,” which is often used as a symbol for “Heil Hitler.” He faces federal hate crime charges.
Attacks by Muslim extremists appear to center around military targets, such as Fort Hood, a U.S. military post in

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

...26 killings by Muslim radicals, according to a count by New America...

Attacks by Muslim extremists appear to center around military targets, such as Fort Hood, a U.S. military post

Yeah, right, eh?

Quote:

On June 12, 2016, Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old security guard, killed 49 people and wounded 53 others in a terrorist attack/hate crime inside Pulse, a gay nightclub in Orlando, Florida, United States....

The gunman was identified as 29-year-old Omar Mateen...His parents were Afghan, and he was raised as a Muslim...

During the shooting, Mateen made a 9-1-1 call claiming, among others, it was an act of retaliation for the killing of ISIL militant Abu Waheeb in an airstrike the previous week.

That one terrorist alone, ignoring all the many others, refutes your source's claims, Ed, but you eat up that propaganda like it was chocolate cream pie.

It's just that kinda thinking that went a long way to gettin Trump elected. Good work!

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Your source seems to have forgotten that the Fort Hood deal massacre was, according to Obama, just common old "workplace violence," not terrorism. That's pretty unforgivable for a propagandist, actually.

Nevermind this, it don't mean nuthin:

Quote:

The Army psychiatrist who killed 13 people at Fort Hood has written a letter to the leader of ISIS, asking to become a citizen of the Islamic State's caliphate, his attorney said Thursday...

He wrote: "It would be an honor for any believers to be an obedient citizen soldier to a people and its leader who don't compromise the religion of All-Mighty Allah to get along with the disbelievers."

Hasan is on the military's death row at the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.

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@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

I don't offer a solution, LM. I only say we shouldn't abandon our principles for the sake of security.
Say we banned all Muslim immigrants and turned away the refugees, then some fifth generation American named Pete Williams shoots up a school. What then?
That doesn't take care of the Cliven Bundys or the Timothy Mcveighs.
There's a real value in helping the helpless. And if in taking in 1,000 refugees one terrorist gets in, well that's the price.
The FBI and others already have their eye on things in ways we probably don't even know about.
Maybe we should plant spies within the Mosques.

1. Kinda funny that you equate Bundy with McViegh and this Abdul terrorist. But, whatever, I'm not sure I follow your point. Sure, there's plenty of wack-jobs runnin around as it is., but is that a reason to invite MORE of them in?

2. I'm not sure what your "principles" are, but one of mine would be to keep those who hate America out of America, to the extent possible. We don't "owe" anything to people in other countries, especially not to those who detest us.

3. Notwithstanding the incessant complaints of dedicated anti-terrorist agencies who are trying to do their job, Obama has prohibited the investigations of mosques on the grounds that it would be "profiling." But, I'm with you. We should infiltrate the hotbeds of domestic terrorism and watch them 24/7.

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Ya know, that Orlando terrorist was born and raised in America. Why would he want to kill hundreds of other Americans in retaliation for some ISIS cutthroat being killed?

Wait, I forgot--he was raised as a muslim.

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If you want to deport dangerous people I could give you a hint where to start.

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@layman,

Quote:

...raised as a Muslim

You'd like that to be the easy-answer, wouldn't you?
It's not that simple or cut and dried, takes look at McVeigh and Nichols and their attack of the Murrah building in Oklahoma City.

1 Reply

@Sturgis,

Take a look at the terrorist's own stated reasons for their actions, why doncha? In the orlando case, and the one at OSU.

What's that tellya?

I'm not saying that every muslim is a terrorist, just wait for a "signal." That's what Abdul Artan said, though, and I figure he knows a lot more muslims than I do. I guess it's possible.

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

If you want to deport dangerous people I could give you a hint where to start.

Well, hell yeah, Ed, spill it then. What's the "hint?"

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@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

That doesn't take care of the Cliven Bundys or the Timothy Mcveighs.

I think this comment is worth coming back to for a couple of reasons:

1. You are, by implication, making Bundy the moral equivalent of mass-murders. That says something about the way you think. That "way of thinking" comes from a certain segment--the cheese-eaters. A jury of peers decided that the "civil disobedience" that Bundy and his crew engaged in did NOT justify criminal punishment. I'm sure the cheese-eaters are outraged by this, but not the jurors, for some damn reason.

2. The suggestion that the two "problems" are equally serious is quite appalling to some. It doesn't strike me as just "wrong," but more as utterly irrational. Yet this point of view is widespread among those who just lost significant political power. Do they reflect on that? No, they just double down on the craziness of it. They think their position is eminently reasonable. Their loss.

3. What is the point anyway? Suppose I say that many more people are killed in car crashes than by terrorists. So what? Does that attempt to minimize and ignore the problem solve anything? Does that mean that we shouldn't devote any resources to treating and curing cancer, for example, because fewer die from it than accidents? Put another way, the question becomes why is a non sequitur like this even advanced? There have to be some ulterior motives behind this that have little to do with "reason."

1 Reply

@layman,

I didn't say that Clive Bundy murdered anyone. But he is a white supremacist and an anti-government activist. Just like McVeigh. There was a time when McVeigh wasn't a murderer either, until he murdered that is.
Cliven Bundy showed up armed. His sympathizers from all over the country showed up armed. Why? They were ready and willing to shoot it out with the "Feds". Thank goodness it didn't turn out that way. The authorities were careful not to escalate the situation. It's a good thing I'm not in charge of things because I would have sent in a couple squads of special forces to end their "occupation".
Bundy is a freeloader. He and his daddy before him have made a living grazing their cattle on federal land. For some reason he decided not to pay his grazing fees for 20 years. Now the fed is restricting grazing in his area. Not for him in particular, just in his region. Well he doesn't like that and keeps grazing his cattle there anyway, claiming some ancestral right to do so. When he was thwarted in his efforts there, he took the fight to the feds through his sons in Portland, Oregon. He is currently charged with 16 felony counts and is awaiting trial in jail.
Strange how when the standoff in Nevada first started, he had the support of conservative politicians...??!! Yeah. A scofflaw and trespasser who owes over 1 million in fees to the US govt. and is willing to take up arms against the legal authorities.
They only denounced him after his rant about how the "Negro" was better off a slave than living on welfare.
Now let's see, Bundy is making a living by grazing cattle on federal land. Land that he doesn't own. So he's getting a benefit from the government that allows him to make a living. When that benefit is taken away, he's furious. Won't pay his fees and loads his rifle, demanding his free ride.
And then he rants about the Negro getting a free ride. What's it to him? Are there a lot of black welfare-recipients in Nevada's cattle country? No. He's a bigot. A white supremacist. When he goes to prison he'll be a well respected leader in the Aryan Brotherhood or some other such group.
I guess you use the word cheese-eater as a derogatory toward someone who respects law and order and American values. If so, bring on the cheddar!

1 Reply

@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

. authorities were careful not to escalate the situation. It's a good thing I'm not in charge of things because I would have sent in a couple squads of special forces to end their "occupation".

I'll bet you woulda! You and Montel Williams.

Quote:

I'm calling on Govt to end terrorist siege perpetrated by a bunch of hillbilly American Taliban--put this down using National Guard with shoot to kill orders. (Montel Williams)

I see where you're coming from now.

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Ya know, after reading this muslim's facebook posts, made 3 minutes before he plowed his car into a crowd, praising muslim terrorists, promising "no sleep" to Americans, etc., I kinda thought he was a terrorist.

I guess I was wrong, according to some, at least. Turns out this emphatically was NOT terrorism. It was merely a "misunderstanding." Not like Bundy. What he did was deliberate terror, of course.

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@layman,

Using your own reasoning, how does a Muslim terrorist in Ohio make white supremacist militants OK?
Abdul Artan was definitely a terrorist, so what? Does that mean Bundy is some kind of American Hero?
How can you defend scum like that? It's that same anti-government mentality that ultimately brought down the federal building in Oklahoma City. Ever heard of the Turner Diaries? There are groups all over the country that see it as a blueprint for action. This is a real problem.
Yes there are Muslim terrorists in the US. Everyone knows that. What do you suggest, a roundup of all Muslims? Turning away refugees? Now I see YOUR worldview, LM.
We have law enforcement agencies on the job monitoring the situation. Isn't that good enough? Or you don't have faith in their competence.
Let me guess, Obama is the head terrorist and he's instructed the FBI not to investigate too hard. How else can he destroy America? He'd better hurry, he's only got a few weeks left!

1 Reply

@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

Using your own reasoning, how does a Muslim terrorist in Ohio make white supremacist militants OK?

We have law enforcement agencies on the job monitoring the situation. Isn't that good enough? Or you don't have faith in their competence.

1.Make it OK!? "My" reasoning? That's your reasoning. Your suggestion was that since taking precautions against foreign terrorists wouldn't stop domestic terrorists (like, *gasp,* BUNDY), then it shouldn't be done. I don't see reason to forego attempts to stop ANY terrorists.

2. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of "cure." Law enforcement cannot always stop guys like, say, McVeigh, from committing acts of terrorism on U.S. soil. But they can prevent potential terrorists like Abdul from even entering US soil with our approval and permission in the first place.

1 Reply

@layman,

We both seem to misunderstand each other. of course I believe we should be taking every precaution to prevent terrorism both foreign and domestic. Every precaution that falls in line with our principles, that is. I wouldn't want to see Muslims rounded up and put into camps just as I wouldn't want to see young white male gun owners pre-emptively arrested. I also don't think that turning away refugees is in keeping with our American values. Check them, vette them, spy on them, follow them around if you have to, but don't turn them away. It's simple. If you see someone hurt on the sidewalk, you offer them help. If you suspect that they are not hurt but are only trying to lure you close to mug you, approach with caution, approach with your pistol drawn, but don't just walk on by.

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@TomTomBinks,

TomTomBinks wrote:

It's simple. If you see someone hurt on the sidewalk, you offer them help.

Right, and if you see a homeless person on the street, you take them to your home and feed them for life. And then another. And another. Once your house is full, you go buy another and start all over again.

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@layman,

We're 20 trillion in debt, and have millions on the unemployment rolls as it is.

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I guess I just don't get you, LM. You're either a grade A number one asshole or you're baiting me with your "humor". I honestly can't tell. So either we can have a real discussion or we can't, it's up to you.

1 Reply

If only his name was Pete Williams instead of Abdul Artan, eh?

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