Should America's actions pass "the global test"?

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Should America's policy decisions pass "the global test"? Thomas Jefferson certainly thought so ...

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, [...] a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

... and so did the following fellows:

Quote:

JOHN HANCOCK, President

Attested, CHARLES THOMSON, Secretary

New Hampshire: JOSIAH BARTLETT WILLIAM WHIPPLE MATTHEW THORNTON

Massachusetts-Bay: SAMUEL ADAMS JOHN ADAMS ROBERT TREAT PAINE ELBRIDGE GERRY

Rhode Island: STEPHEN HOPKINS WILLIAM ELLERY

Connecticut: ROGER SHERMAN SAMUEL HUNTINGTON WILLIAM WILLIAMS OLIVER WOLCOTT

Georgia: BUTTON GWINNETT LYMAN HALL GEO. WALTON

Maryland: SAMUEL CHASE WILLIAM PACA THOMAS STONE CHARLES CARROLL OF CARROLLTON

Virginia: GEORGE WYTHE RICHARD HENRY LEE THOMAS JEFFERSON BENJAMIN HARRISON THOMAS NELSON, JR. FRANCIS LIGHTFOOT LEE CARTER BRAXTON.

New York: WILLIAM FLOYD PHILIP LIVINGSTON FRANCIS LEWIS LEWIS MORRIS

Pennsylvania: ROBERT MORRIS BENJAMIN RUSH BENJAMIN FRANKLIN JOHN MORTON GEORGE CLYMER JAMES SMITH GEORGE TAYLOR JAMES WILSON GEORGE ROSS

Delaware: CAESAR RODNEY GEORGE READ THOMAS M'KEAN

North Carolina: WILLIAM HOOPER JOSEPH HEWES JOHN PENN

South Carolina: EDWARD RUTLEDGE THOMAS HEYWARD, JR. THOMAS LYNCH, JR. ARTHUR MIDDLETON

New Jersey: RICHARD STOCKTON JOHN WITHERSPOON FRANCIS HOPKINS JOHN HART ABRAHAM CLARK

As we learned in the last presidential debate, John Kerry also thinks America shouldn't go to war without having passed this global test. George Bush disagrees. Now I'm confused: Why were the founding fathers so unpatriotic, so -- for lack of a better word -- FRENCH? Shocked

(The idea for this thread was stolen from Brad deLong and Mark Kleinman)

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Thomas Jefferson et. al. did not need to worry about the instant death of millions as a result of a terrorist attack.

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McGentrix wrote:

Thomas Jefferson et. al. did not need to worry about the instant death of millions as a result of a terrorist attack.

Neither did Bush et. al. -- at least not from the country they were attacking after cancelling the global test for fear of flunking.

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McGentrix wrote:

Thomas Jefferson et. al. did not need to worry about the instant death of millions as a result of a terrorist attack.

Nice answer, completely ignoring the question and instead provoking fear and disillusionment. You fit in quite well with the 2000 RNC.

Maybe next time you can take a stab at answering the question instead of spewing your fear propaganda. The reason you don't is because any logical answer you come up with would counter GREAT AMERICANS, who understood diplomacy and how to avoid the pitfalls of being a leading country in the world.

Thomas- Great question, but I bet we'll get the same old non-thinking response. It's absolute amazing to me at how programmed and brainwashed the American public has become. Vote for Kerry and you will die. This is the absolute lowest form of politics and fear mongering this country has EVER seen. Avoid and semblance of a rational discussion and instead tell AMericans how they should FEAR Kerry.

Well, there were over 50,000 deaths because of car crashes last year, I guess we should all not vote for Kerry because if we do, we will die in a car crash. Absolute lunacy.

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The idea is a great one, the term "global test" is unfortunate.

The real issue is that when we invade other sovereign nations, we should be able to explain our actions in ways that are reasonable to the average human being.

Let's rephrase the question...

Should America be able to do whatever it wants, including invading other nations, even when its actions are considered unwarranted by the rest of the world?

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Joe Republican wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Thomas Jefferson et. al. did not need to worry about the instant death of millions as a result of a terrorist attack.

Nice answer, completely ignoring the question and instead provoking fear and disillusionment. You fit in quite well with the 2000 RNC.

Maybe next time you can take a stab at answering the question instead of spewing your fear propaganda. The reason you don't is because any logical answer you come up with would counter GREAT AMERICANS, who understood diplomacy and how to avoid the pitfalls of being a leading country in the world.

Thomas- Great question, but I bet we'll get the same old non-thinking response. It's absolute amazing to me at how programmed and brainwashed the American public has become. Vote for Kerry and you will die. This is the absolute lowest form of politics and fear mongering this country has EVER seen. Avoid and semblance of a rational discussion and instead tell AMericans how they should FEAR Kerry.

Well, there were over 50,000 deaths because of car crashes last year, I guess we should all not vote for Kerry because if we do, we will die in a car crash. Absolute lunacy.

That is quite the well phrased, polite ad hominem I've seen in awhile that addresses nothing.

The only test America's policy decisions need to pass is with the American electorate. Iraq supported terrorism. Does anyone here deny that? Does anyone question the triumvirate of Iraq, Iran and N. Korea being an "axis of evil"? They have the ability to threaten the American society. Therefore it is up to the US to defend itself.

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Thomas asked

Quote:

Why were the founding fathers so unpatriotic, so -- for lack of a better word -- FRENCH?

I've got no idea at all, how this is an answer to that.

McGentrix wrote:

The only test America's policy decisions need to pass is with the American electorate. Iraq supported terrorism. Does anyone here deny that? Does anyone question the triumvirate of Iraq, Iran and N. Korea being an "axis of evil"? They have the ability to threaten the American society. Therefore it is up to the US to defend itself.

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Is that the question? If so, it's not a good question.

Apply my answewr to

Quote:

Should America's policy decisions pass "the global test"? Thomas Jefferson certainly thought so ...

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Here's the thing.

We don't have to pass a global test for anything here in America. Unless, yaknow, we want to be respected internationally.

It's like being courteous and polite. It earns you respect when you show that you care about the feelings of other countries.

That respect is important internationally, extremely so, no matter what the neocons tell ya.

Cycloptichorn

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McGentrix wrote:

Is that the question? If so, it's not a good question.

No-one forced you to answer it :wink:

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I think the "respect" thing can be broken down further -- "respect" in and of itself is nice, but is it necessary? I think the important part is what was played up in other parts of the debate -- we're too overextended to do anything about Darfur. We're too overextended already in Afghanistan and Iraq. We're trying to do things on a global scale, but the global scale is too darn big to go at it alone.

So, once we take that as a given -- we operate on a global scale, and we need help to do it -- it is downright foolhardy to thumb our noses at the rest of the world rather than doing our utmost to get them working WITH us.

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McGentrix wrote:

The only test America's policy decisions need to pass is with the American electorate.

Let me see if I understood you correctly: You disagree with presidents Hancock, Adams, and Jefferson, who thought that 'decent respect for the opinions of mankind' matters too? How about contractual obligations between countries, such as those America has voluntarily entered into when it co-founded the United Nations?

McGentrix wrote:

Iraq supported terrorism. Does anyone here deny that?

I do, assuming that your implication is "terrorism against the United States". If you have evidence to the contrary, you may want to let the 9/11 commission know, because they searched for such evidence and didn't find it.

McGentrix wrote:

Does anyone question the triumvirate of Iraq, Iran and N. Korea being an "axis of evil"?

I do. I can see how they are evil; I cannot see how they are an axis in any politically meaningful way. As always, I am persuadable if you can back up your point with conclusive evidence.

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We have more problems than terrorism.

Personally; I don't think terrorism is strong enough to bring the US down. I think at least some time needs to be spent making sure we don't neglect other important aspects of world policy, and one of those is the importance of having strong strategic partners abroad.

Cycloptichorn

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McGentrix wrote:

The only test America's policy decisions need to pass is with the American electorate. Iraq supported terrorism. Does anyone here deny that? Does anyone question the triumvirate of Iraq, Iran and N. Korea being an "axis of evil"? They have the ability to threaten the American society. Therefore it is up to the US to defend itself.

So you in essence disagree with our founding fathers, you have just admitted this by answering the question. I wonder how they would think of America's position and standing in the world today. They're probably trying to figure out how to come back from the dead to kick Bush's ass for his colossal failure on international diplomacy.

As for your questions.

Quote:

Iraq supported terrorism. Does anyone here deny that?

Yes, if you are implying that Iraq supported 9-11 terrorists. You see, OBL Hated Hussen for two reasons, one he was a secular regime and two he killed and massacred many Muslims. OBL would NEVER join sides with Saddam because it would go against his teachings. But this would be impossibly for you to see, because in your eyes, an enemy of an enemy is a friend. Kind of how we involved ourselves with providing Iraq Chemical Weapons in the 80's huh.

Quote:

Does anyone question the triumvirate of Iraq, Iran and N. Korea being an "axis of evil"? They have the ability to threaten the American society.

Iraq, ABSOLUTELY!!! They couldn't even feed their population, let alone attack the US. Have you ever thought what would Saddam benefit by attacking the US? Nope, I bet you haven't, because any attack on the US would surely mean the downfall of his regime. He was a brutal dictator, but he was not a moron. He ruled one of the most troublesome areas in the world for over 20 years, he didn't do this because he was inept, yet you will fail to look at this.

We are also the ones who stood by and allowed both Iran and NK to become nuclear powers while doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!! Yep, let them become able to single handedly create Nuclear weapons, then fear the American public into thinking they are going to attack. Open your eyes and think for once. Your platform is sinking because you have backed an administration which cornered itself. Fortunately for the American population, we elected a candidate who would bring Bush to task. You are starting to hear it now and Bush has nothing to counter. He can't even defend his actions, because they are indefensible.

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How does "Iraq supported terrorism" make all these nice conclusions for your arguements? I did not imply anything or add anything to the statement.

Do you think Jefferson really meant that we should have British permission to do what we wished to as a soveriegn nation? We just got out of a war that was about NOT needing British permission. I think the interpretation that Thomas is making about Jefferson's words is flawed, not what Jefferson said.

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McGentrix wrote:

How does "Iraq supported terrorism" make all these nice conclusions for your arguements? I did not imply anything or add anything to the statement.

Because "terrorism against the US" is the only interpretation of your use of the word "terrorism" on which America was even possibly justified in attacking Iraq. When a country -- say, Germany -- supports terrorism against, say, France, America doesn't get to defend itself -- France does. And France only gets to defend itself against Germany. It doesn't get to defend itself against Spain, if it hasn't attacked it. Therefore, if you don't believe Iraq supported terrorism against the US, your argument about defense against terrorism is dead in the water. We were simply giving your argument the benefit of the doubt.

McGentrix wrote:

Do you think Jefferson really meant that we should have British permission to do what we wished to as a soveriegn nation?

I don't think Jefferson meant that. And as it happens, I also don't think John Kerry meant he needed the world's permission for defending itself against a foreign attack. Which, in this case, was coming from Afghanistan, and which Nato helped America fight against.

McGentrix wrote:

We just got out of a war that was about NOT needing British permission. I think the interpretation that Thomas is making about Jefferson's words is flawed, not what Jefferson said.

Frankly, I have no idea what you think my interpretation of Jefferson's words is -- perhaps you could tell me? I would be even more interested in hearing what you think Jefferson meant, and whether you agree with him.

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McGentrix wrote:

How does "Iraq supported terrorism" make all these nice conclusions for your arguements?

Because it was the implication that Iraq supported the terrorists attacking us, not Hezbola and Hammas. There are a NUMBER of countries that support terrorism, to use Iraq as a focal point, because they did as well shows your ignorance to the implication that Iraq was directly working with Al Qaeda.

If Bush said "Iraq supports terrorists" do you think the American public would have agreed with the war? Hell no!

Quote:

I did not imply anything or add anything to the statement.

You did not need to, our administration did it for you.

Quote:

Do you think Jefferson really meant that we should have British permission to do what we wished to as a soveriegn nation? We just got out of a war that was about NOT needing British permission. I think the interpretation that Thomas is making about Jefferson's words is flawed, not what Jefferson said.

No, it's about becoming a leader in the world by listening instead of acting. Wait before all the facts are in before you make your decision, not make your decision, then spin the facts to back it. It's circular logic and the quickest way for failure to approach our nation. They understood over 200 years ago what perils we would face as a nation and they tried to ratify a document, aka the constitution, which guaranteed we would never jump to judgement. Instead, Bush circumnavigated the document with the backing of the house and senate through a massive campaign of fear mongering and propaganda. The one thing our founding fathers were trying to avoid.

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I would also like to add this bit that Jefferson wrote...

Quote:

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

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Re: Should America's actions pass "the global test&quot

Thomas wrote:

Should America's policy decisions pass "the global test"? Thomas Jefferson certainly thought so ...

Thomas Jefferson wrote:
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, [...] a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Thomas, it seems to me to be a bit of a misunderstanding to imply that Jefferson is saying we need permission to act as a sovereign nation. This statement does not say he thought we should pass "the global test". If my reading of it is correct, he is saying that in respect to the other nations we should "declare the causes" which led to our actions of rebellion against England. He did not say, nor seek, the world's permission for our actions, only that we should explain the reasons for our actions.

Thus, to answer your questions about Bush, he has explained to anyone who will listen our actions in regard to Iraq. Other nations may not agree with his actions or his reasons, but they have been explained.

I don't see any conflict here with what our founding fathers wrote and the actions of Bush toward other nations in regards to this conflict. Unless of course you somehow twist what is written into a need for permission from the world.

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Beautiful question, Thomas.

McG will do his best to rationalize around it, because he really does want to suppose that what Bush did was not a colossal mistake which not only has polluted world opinion against us...but which has every indication of being the most counterproductive undertaking since the American war on drugs.

I think McG's intentions are good...but he has allowed himself to be blinded by his ideology.

No good will come of this for America...nor the world.

Our founding fathers were right on the mark.

Yes...we should expect our actions to pass a global test...and it is not necessary for us to give up sovereignty in order to do that. Bush's father proved that.

(PS...John Hancock was not a president of the United States.)

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Should America's actions pass "the global test"?

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