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Is it a hate crime if there are no black people in the room

 
 
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2016 09:29 pm
Is it a hate crime for two white racists to say horrifyingly sick and disgusting things, that do not incite violence nor organize any crime to occur, but which are overtly racist and about specifically black people?

People saying them are both white.
Captive audience is all white, not racist.
 
XxSiCxX
 
  2  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2016 10:52 pm
@IgnoranceIsBS,
Quote:
A hate crime is usually defined by state law as one that involves threats, harassment, or physical harm and is motivated by prejudice against someone's race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, sexual orientation or physical or mental disability. Laws vary by state and if hate crimes are provided for by statute, the defintions of hate crimes and penalties imposed vary. States that have hate crime statutes provide harsher penalites for such offenses.


So by that no. It's not a crime. No one is being victimized. Is it hate speech? Yup. Are any of those people being held there against will to leave? If not then still no crime. If these people are being threatened not to leave then it becomes a crime. You could maybe say if it is about one person in general that it is slander. That becomes a bit of murky water though.
0 Replies
 
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2016 11:03 pm
@IgnoranceIsBS,
In the US, you can say any group is disgusting and horrible and as long as you are not advocating crimes it is not a hate crime. The government will not come after you. If you lose your job-and you might-that's your problem. You have to advocate violence for it to be a hate crime.

PS: What do you mean by "captive audience"?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Sep, 2016 11:35 pm
@Blickers,
Don't know, but intuition tells me they are not captive in the sense of not being allowed to leave. I can't think of a sense where someone could be captive and allowed to leave, now that I think of it.
0 Replies
 
ekename
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:13 am
@IgnoranceIsBS,
Vilification is a crime if and only if legislation defines it as illegal.

The identity of the people in the room may be legislatively irrelevant.

Statutory interpretation by a judge would consider the intent of the legislation and whether the language was merely name calling, inter alia.

Why do you ask?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  4  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 04:10 am
No, not a crime. Just racists speaking freely in an environment in which they evidently felt comfortable. Just curious, when you find yourself in a situation like that, do you feel any obligation to speak out against the racial slurs and vilification?

Some white people asked me what they could practically do about all the racism they do believe still exists. I told them that one small way they could stand up is to speak up when someone is telling a n*gger joke or disparaging another race. To say "Hey, that's not cool", or something to register disapproval and not tacit agreement from silence.

A lot of bad stuff happens in the presence of good people who say and do nothing.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  6  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 04:11 am
@Blickers,
Maybe it's people on a plane in midair, having to listen to a pair of yahoos who can't shut up.
Blickers
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 09:07 am
@jespah,
Good answer. I was wondering what circumstances could constitute a "captive audience" in the modern day, that is certainly one. I wonder what would happen if the other customers complained about it to the attendants-what would be the outcome?
chai2
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 09:29 am
@Blickers,
Probably another YouTube video, viral or not.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  4  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:06 pm
In the UK, no black person would need to be present for a crime to be committed. The Public Order Act 1986 prohibits, by its Part 3, expressions of racial hatred, which is defined as hatred against a group of persons by reason of the group's colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins. Section 18 of the Act says:

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—

(a) they intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or

(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

Offences under Part 3 carry a maximum sentence of seven years imprisonment or a fine or both.

The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 inserted Section 4A into the Public Order Act 1986. That part prohibits anyone from causing alarm or distress. Section 4A states:

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he— (a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or (b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting, thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale* or to both.

* Before March 2015, the level 5 limit was £5,000. This limit was removed by section 85 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (i.e. there is no limit to the size of the fine).

Blickers
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:11 pm
@contrex,
Yes, I knew the standards were different between the US and the UK, (and probably much of Europe). So now we have wonder-where would the national laws apply? Would the person be committing a crime if the plane was flying over the UK at the time, but not the US? Or does it have to do with where the plane's airline is based-if it's a UK airline then UK laws apply?

Does anyone know?
chai2
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:22 pm
@contrex,
I don't think anyone said anything about a black person being present contrex. Or did I miss it?

I'm in the most agreement with snood, unless I'm misinterpreting.

It's not a hate crime for any 2 people, of any race, who feel comfortable in that given environment expressing themselves, even in vile ways.

This is like thought police ****.

2 or more people sitting around and jawing about n!iggers, f@gs, c~nts, or any other group, saying how much they hate them, isn't a crime. The fact someone else is there and being offended, and can't at that moment leave, doesn't make it one.

I wasn't kidding about the youtube thing. Now, every private conversation, glance, gesture or turn of the head is documented and thrown out to the world. There people are judge, jury and executioner over stuff that they really needed be seeing. It just takes one person with a phone to stir sh!t up over some "injustice".

It's pathetic.

These 2 hypothetical people aren't commiting a crime. They're just being a$$holes.



chai2
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:33 pm
Not trying to run this into a joke, but I just watched (part) of this video on another thread here.

Personally, I find this more of a crime than listening to 2 bigots talking on the same flight.
Talking about not being able to get away, and being held captive. On top of that, everyone is supposed to think it's great, and if you spoke up, you'd be in the wrong.

I'll bet this flight attendant does this crap all the time, and has caused countless mental distress.

I just wanted to land in Chicago dude. Shut up.

0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:50 pm
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:
I don't think anyone said anything about a black person being present contrex. Or did I miss it?
The OP made a point of mentioning that:
Quote:
People saying them are both white.
Captive audience is all white, not racist.
It seemed to me that the OP's hypothetical situation is one in which no black person is present, possibly because they wonder if "hate crime" must have a "victim" present before it merits that title. In fact that is openly said in the thread title.




contrex
 
  3  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 12:58 pm
Crown Prosecution Service, West Midlands, 27 Feb 2014:
Quote:
A female airline passenger, who had to be physically restrained by cabin crew on a flight from Crete to Birmingham, was yesterday sentenced to 10 months imprisonment after she had pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing of being drunk on an aircraft as well as being racially abusive to her fellow passengers.

Birmingham Crown Court heard that 41-year-old Marsha Woodwart from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire boarded a Thompson Airline flight (TOM7451) at Heraklion Airport, Crete on 19 July 2013 which was due to fly to Birmingham International Airport.

The flight departed at 22.30GMT and approximately 30 minutes into the flight the cabin crew were made aware of a passenger who had been in the aeroplane's toilet for a long period of time.

Cabin crew, fearing for her health, attempted to assist her, but Woodwart became verbally abusive towards them. The crew then noticed smoke coming out of the toilet and after having received permission from the Captain, they removed the toilet door. They found the defendant in a state of intoxication, with a litre bottle of vodka in her possession and a cigarette butt on the toilet floor.

The crew tried to persuade Woodwart to come out of the toilet but she refused and due to her aggressive behaviour, the Captain authorised the use of restraints on her.

The defendant was eventually taken to the front of the plane where she was restrained by the crew, however, she continued to be verbally abusive to the crew and she began to spit at them. Fellow passengers, who were sitting near her, had to be moved to other seats as she began to become racially abusive towards them and spit at them too.

When the Boeing 757 arrived at Birmingham International Airport, Woodwart was arrested by police and she was charged with and pleaded guilty to being drunk on an aircraft, intentionally interfering with the performance of a member of crew, racially aggravated common assault and racially aggravated harassment.

Suzanne Llewellyn, Head of West Midlands Crown Prosecution Service's Crown Court Unit, said: "Marsha Woodwart's behaviour on a passenger flight was not only illegal and dangerous, but it must have been extremely distressing to her fellow passengers, which would have included young children

0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  4  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 01:05 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Would the person be committing a crime if the plane was flying over the UK at the time, but not the US? Or does it have to do with where the plane's airline is based-if it's a UK airline then UK laws apply?
If the plane crew decide to report a crime to either the destination airport or they decide to divert, I think jurisdiction is taken by the police at the place the plane lands. Plenty of British tourists have been arrested by Spanish, Greek, Cypriot, etc police on landing and dealt with in the local courts. If the crime was reported later and the perp and witnesses were all British, and there was enough evidence, it is open to the UK legal authorities to bring a case.
Quote:
An Egyptian passenger who assaulted an air stewardess and insulted other crew members was been jailed for one year by the Dubai Courts.

The passenger became so disruptive on board the Flydubai flight from Dubai to Alexandria that he had to be restrained in his seat, and the flight was forced to make an emergency landing in Saudi Arabia.

The man was sent back to Dubai, which led to his appearance at Dubai Court of First.

0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  0  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2016 07:58 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

chai2 wrote:
I don't think anyone said anything about a black person being present contrex. Or did I miss it?
The OP made a point of mentioning that:
Quote:
People saying them are both white.
Captive audience is all white, not racist.
It seemed to me that the OP's hypothetical situation is one in which no black person is present, possibly because they wonder if "hate crime" must have a "victim" present before it merits that title. In fact that is openly said in the thread title.

/quote]

Ok, cool.

I was just wondering why you were bringing up that a black person needn't be present, since we all knew that.
0 Replies
 
 

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