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Saddam has won. Kofi Anan says the war was illegal.

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 01:31 pm
interesting article Brandy thanks

couple of points



Quote:
British attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, had found Britain was acting legally


What the article does not say is that the full text of Goldsmith's advice to his ex flat mate Tony (who made him a Peer of the Realm and gave him a cabinet job with a car and everything...) is secret.

The published text may be summarised as follows

"If my mate the prime minister wants assurance that what he's doing is legal then its legal as far as I'm concerned. After all he's a mate"

The article does not mention the fact that half of Goldsmith's staff resigned over the issue. Nor the fact that the advice changed when it was clear Britain was not going to secure the so-called second resolution at the Security Council. And it changed yet again when the chief of the defence Staff threatened to go on strike unless it was made crystal clear that military commaders could not be found as acting illegally in Iraq.

Quote:
"I was hoping diplomacy would work, " Bush lied* Thursday



*edited for clarity
0 Replies
 
melbournian cheese
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 03:17 am
by the way people are talking about it, getting a Nobel Peace Prize must mean you're destined for evil. However, Shrub doesn't need one, seeing as he's already evil.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 05:09 am
Actually it's an odd article by Robert Barr

Let's see. I've cut out all the extra stuff which was mostly Kofi talking more about UN resolutions.........

Quote:
LONDON - Major U.S. allies on Thursday rejected a claim by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) that the war in Iraq (news - web sites) was "illegal" because Washington and its coalition partners never got Security Council backing for the invasion.

Okay. Who?

[quote]Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites)'s office disputed Annan's comments about the legitimacy of the war. It reiterated that the British attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, had found Britain was acting legally in supporting the military action, citing three U.N. resolutions that justified the use of force against Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s regime. [/quote]

So the British just reiterated their previous statements which have been continually in doubt as to their veracity, but I'll count it. One.

Quote:
Bush didn't comment directly on Annan's remarks but said he had no regrets.

"I was hoping diplomacy would work, " Bush said Thursday while campaigning in Minnesota. "Knowing what I know today even though we haven't found the stockpiles of weapons we thought were there, I'd still make the same decision. America and the world are safer with Saddam Hussein sitting in a prison cell."


Bush?? How'd he get in here? I thought this article was about the comments of major allies??



Quote:
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government, which also supported the invasion, made no comment.


Hmmm. That doesn't appear to be a rejection of a claim.

Quote:
But Giuseppe Fioroni, a member of Italy's center-left opposition, urged the government to take a position.
"Other governments felt a duty to express themselves with clear words. As usual, Italy is an exception from which we would like to hear a position clearly and urgently," Fioroni told the country's ANSA news agency.
Analyst Germano Dottori of the Center for Strategic Studies in Rome said he suspected Annan was trying to undermine President Bush (news - web sites) before the U.S. elections.
"The timing cannot be explained otherwise. Why would you make a statement like this now, when it is in everybody's interest to stabilize the situation?" Dottori said.


So this Italian opposition leader and this other guy, an analyst, are our major allies???

Quote:


Hey, wait a minute!! Those aren't are major allies rejecting Kofi's statement!! Get them out of here.!!!!!!


Quote:


Well, finally. A major ally comes forward, too bad he's a twit. Two


Quote:
British Trade and Industry Secretary Patricia Hewitt said she also disagreed with Annan.


Huh? Good for Patricia, but she's not a major ally, she's a Trade Secretary for Tony from whom we have already heard .

Quote:
Japan's top government spokesman, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda, said his country, also a U.S. supporter in Iraq, would seek clarification about Annan's remarks.


Uh. Is that a rejection? Nope.

=====
So here it the list of major allies actually rejecting Annan's statement.

DaT dah dah daaaah!

England.

Australia.

Wow, from the headline and the length of the article, I thought it would be longer than that.

Joe
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 05:33 am
Annan's comments have put Tony Blair in a particularly difficult position.

Liberal Democrat spokesman Menzies Campbell has demanded...said it was imperative...that the govt now publish the FULL advice given by the Attorney General. As I pointed out above, they've published a summary which of course said the war was legal. (Really what do people expect...govt. chief law officer declares government breaking law? Go directly to gaol, do not pass Go do not collect £200 ...)

Why won't they publish. Well of course its not because the govt was told the war was of doubtful legality. Oh no. Its because publishing would breech the long standing rules of confidentiality between lawyer (attorney general) and client (government). !!

Think about this the Attorney General is appointed by the Prime Minister and is the govt.s chief law officer. But he's a cabinet member and a member of the govt. himself.

Blair publishes the favourable bits because that's not breaking rules of confidentiality, but keeps the full document secret because that would break confidence.

Re arrange following into well known phrase or saying

rat a smell I
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 06:15 am
Joe, while your comments make me laugh, I wonder if you are being a tad overly zealous sometimes.
0 Replies
 
PKB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 07:06 am
McGentrix wrote:
It's time for a new leader in the UN. Annan has proven himself to be an ineffective leader.

Work best this way:

It's time for a new leader in the U.S. Bush has proven himself to be in ineffective leader.

Very Happy Much. Much. Better and makes a hell of a lot more sense that way.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 09:06 am
McGentrix wrote:
Joe, while your comments make me laugh, I wonder if you are being a tad overly zealous sometimes.


Wouldn't it have made more sense to point out where Joe was being over zealous, McG?

Sounds to me as though he was right on the mark.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:21 am
What's 'Illegal'?
Kofi Annan helped Saddam Hussein steal food from babies.

BY CLAUDIA ROSETT
Wednesday, September 22, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

When U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan opined last week to the BBC that the U.S.-led overthrow of Saddam Hussein had been "illegal," two words came instantly to my mind: baby food.

No, I'm not comparing Mr. Annan's thoughts to pabulum. He is a smart man, adept enough that even in his BBC moment of condemning the U.S. (perhaps mindful that the U.S. is the U.N.'s chief financial backer) he took the trouble to blur responsibility for his own words, amending his use of "I" to the royal "we." Said Mr. Annan: "From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."

It's unclear exactly whose collective view Mr. Annan thinks he was authorized to express, or under what terms in the U.N. charter he casts himself on some occasions as the hapless servant of the Security Council, and at other times, such as this, as the outspoken chief judge of world law.

But if Mr. Annan wants to discuss right and wrong in Iraq, which seems to be the real issue, then it is time to talk about baby formula. Why? Because Mr. Annan's preferred means of dealing with Saddam was a mix of U.N. sanctions and the U.N. relief program called Oil-for-Food. And the heart and soul of Oil-for-Food was supposed to be the feeding of sick and hungry Iraqi babies--including the purchase by Saddam, under U.N. auspices, of large amounts of baby formula. When Oil-for-Food was launched in 1996, it was advertised by the U.N. as a response to such horrors as pictures of starving Iraqi children and alarming statistics about infant mortality in Iraq, released by one of the U.N.'s own agencies, Unicef.

It was in service of that U.N. mix of sanctions and humanitarian relief that Mr. Annan after visiting with Saddam in Iraq in 1998 returned to New York to report: "I think I can do business with him."

And oh what a lot of business the U.N. did. Mr. Annan's Secretariat collected more than $1.4 billion in commissions on Saddam's oil sales, all to supervise the integrity of Saddam's $65 billion in oil sales and $46 billion in relief purchases. The official aim of this behemoth U.N. aid operation was solely to help the people of Iraq, while the U.N. waited for sanctions to weaken Saddam enough so he would be either overthrown from within or forced to comply with U.N. resolutions on disarmament. Instead, Saddam threw out the U.N. weapons inspectors for four years, and, by estimates of the U.S. General Accounting Office, fortified his own regime with at least $10.1 billion grafted and smuggled out of Oil-for-Food.

But of all the abuses of Oil-for-Food committed by Saddam--and not only allowed but in effect approved and covered up by Mr. Annan's U.N.--the most cynical has to have been the trade in baby formula. This was one of Saddam's imports that few even among the U.N.'s critics dared question. Who could be so heartless as to object to food for hungry children? And given the secrecy with which Mr. Annan ran Oil-for-Food (as hapless servant of a Security Council packed with big-time business partners of Saddam, such as France and Russia), no one outside the U.N. except Saddam and his handpicked contractors knew much in any event about Baghdad's traffic in baby formula.

The U.N. insisted that the identities of Saddam's contractors and the terms of his deals remain confidential. Even today, though the names have leaked, many of the vital details of these contracts (such as quantity and quality of goods) remain smothered in the continuing secrecy imposed by the U.N.-authorized investigation into Oil-for-Food, led by former Fed chairman Paul Volcker. And Mr. Volcker, apparently focused mainly on bribery allegations involving officials of the U.N. itself, may never get around to such broader but also important matters as Oil-for-Baby-Food.

But since Saddam's fall, a few windows have opened through which one can glimpse Saddam's U.N.-approved trade in nursery nutrition. Chief among them is a pricing study carried out by the U.S. Defense Department's contract auditing agencies last year, shortly after Saddam's overthrow. Lest anyone suspect the Pentagon of bias, it would of course be handy to draw on other studies as well. But there are none. Mr. Annan's Secretariat, while swimming in cash from its 2.2% commission on Saddam's oil sales, never got around to systematically examining Saddam's contract prices. That was a notable omission, given that Saddam's scam on relief contracts was one of the oldest and simplest in the book: overpaying for goods, using relief funds meant for the Iraqi public; then collecting part of those overpayments in the form of kickbacks.

And when it came to overpricing, which any veteran aid worker should surely recognize as a flashing red sign of probable graft, one of the most roundly abused categories under Oil-for-Food appears to have been the original rationale for the program: food itself.

The Pentagon pricing study looked at a sample of 759 big-ticket Oil-for-Food contracts still awaiting full delivery when Saddam fell--a snapshot of the program in its final years. Among those were 178 contracts for food. Of these almost 90% were overpriced by an average of about 22%-- more than twice the 10% figure often quoted as Saddam's standard kickback. In this sample, totaling $2.1 billion in U.N.-approved grocery shipping by Saddam, the potential rake-off totaled $390 million.

And within that Oil-for-Food sample shopping spree, the baby formula deals were estimated to be even more egregiously overpriced than the average contract for most other staples. Compared to the hundreds of baby food and milk contracts in the overall program (many of those with France and Russia) the Pentagon sample was small. The study looked at four baby formula contracts, two originating in Egypt, one in Tunisia and one in Vietnam--totaling $43 million (which in any normal relief program might actually rank not as a small sample, but as a lot of money). But it seems telling that every single one of those four baby-formula contracts appeared "potentially overpriced" by about 26%, for a total of $11 million in potential overpayments. On the biggest of these sample contracts, a $26 million deal between Saddam and a Vietnamese dairy company--approved by the U.N. in October 2002, in the thick of the U.N. debate over going to war to remove Saddam--the estimated overpricing of 26% worked out to well over $5 million on that contract alone.

Translation: In late 2002, while Mr. Annan was lobbying against U.S.-led removal of Saddam, he was running a U.N. program in which money meant for baby formula, among other goods, was very likely flowing into the pockets of Saddam and his sons and cronies.

Somehow, that was the kind of problem that Mr. Annan's office managed to miss, although according to a November 2002 statement to the Security Council by Oil-for-Food director Benon Sevan, U.N. staff in Iraq had by then made 1,187,487 total "observation visits" to ensure the integrity of Oil-for-Food. More than one million of those observation visits were devoted to checking on food and nutrition (and all of them were paid for out of the U.N. Secretariat's 2.2% oil sales commissions from Saddam).

In the same November 2002 statement, Mr. Sevan reported that "acute malnutrition" was still rampant among young children in Iraq. Mr. Sevan explained that although malnutrition had been halved since Oil-for-Food began (all this was based on Saddam's statistics), it was still double the rate of 1991--a situation Mr. Sevan himself described as "far from satisfactory." But the solution prescribed by Mr. Annan was not to spot and stop the kickbacks. Rather, while lamenting what he described in Nov. 2002 as the "dire funding shortfall" of Oil-for-Food, Mr. Annan's solution again and again was to urge more oil sales by Saddam. Which meant, most likely, more resources earmarked to feed babies but diverted to the Baghdad regime (and, by extension, more commissions for the U.N.).

It would be interesting for someone with full access to the contract details -- meaning, I suppose, the UN's own investigation into itself -- to total the scores of Oil-for-Food contracts for baby formula, weaning cereal, milk and so on (much of it bought from Security Council member nations Russia and France), and employ some pricing experts to fill in the rest of the numbers.

But what we know already is that Mr. Annan, whose Secretariat turned a blind eye to Saddam's food pricing scams, has never apologized for presiding over the biggest fraud in the history of relief. He has not used the word "illegal." The closest he's come has been to admit this past March, after much stonewalling, that there may have been quite a lot of "wrong-doing"--before turning over the whole mess over to a U.N. investigation that has since smothered all details with its own blanket of secrecy.

Mr. Annan is due to step down next year. If he wants to leave a legacy more auspicious than having presided over Oil-for-Fraud, he might want to devote his twilight time at the U.N. to mending a system in which a U.N. Secretary-General feels free to describe the overthrow of a murderous tyrant as "illegal," but no one at the top seems particularly bothered to have presided over that tyrant's theft of food from hungry children.

link
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:24 am
Quote:
Kofi Annan helped Saddam Hussein steal food from babies.



That has to deserve a salt pancake!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:25 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Quote:
Kofi Annan helped Saddam Hussein steal food from babies.



That has to deserve a salt pancake!


Translation: In late 2002, while Mr. Annan was lobbying against U.S.-led removal of Saddam, he was running a U.N. program in which money meant for baby formula, among other goods, was very likely flowing into the pockets of Saddam and his sons and cronies.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:35 am
That's not a translation, it's an unsupported conclusion. She's drawn this conclusion based on the fact that baby formula contracts were overpriced -- and little else.

And if anyone really wants to know what Kofi said re: illegal...

Quote:
When pressed on whether he viewed the invasion of Iraq as illegal, he said: "Yes, if you wish. I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 10:21 am
Kofi and his cronies can KMA. Get the U.S. OUT of the UN NOW!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 10:23 am
Thanks for the well-reasoned breakdown of the issue, Cjhsa.

Now, if only there were guns involved... I'm sure your opinions would me much better fleshed out.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 10:26 am
Based on my analysis of your signature, I'm assuming you two have regular contact...
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 10:43 am
Awww.. stop with the "sticks and stones" for chriss sake
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 10:48 am
The UN has been diverted from its original purpose, and has become nothing but a stage for starving nations who want U.S. money to stand up and piss on their host. I say get us out.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 11:08 am
Yeah, let's not try and fix things or improve the situation, let's just pack in our bags and go home because the other team isn't playing the way we want anymore.

Boo hoo! How childish you sound.

Perhaps instead we could work to make the UN, a organization in which we were pivotal in forming, an active and well-ran one again through leadership and hard work?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 11:12 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Yeah, let's not try and fix things or improve the situation, let's just pack in our bags and go home because the other team isn't playing the way we want anymore.

Boo hoo! How childish you sound.

Perhaps instead we could work to make the UN, a organization in which we were pivotal in forming, an active and well-ran one again through leadership and hard work?

Cycloptichorn


Cycloptichorn, take a step back and read your last two posts and ask yourself if that it is really the way you want to represent yourself.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 11:14 am
cjhsa wrote:
The UN has been diverted from its original purpose, .


Yeah, I think that's what Kofi is complaining about.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 11:23 am
I will be ever vigilant in pointing out the failings of the mentality that we should cut and run from the UN. It is a childish one and shouldn't be treated as anything but.

There are a lot of posts of yours that I can (and have) said the same thing about, are there not, McG?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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