Another Bush Baby lost to the Dingos

Was there ever any doubt?

And I guess you believe that had Gore been in office this would be different? Or maybe that Kerry can do better? No, I have some really bad news for you. It makes no real difference who is in office. Israel will decide and base their policies on what is best (in their minds) for Israel.

True dat, CR.

incorporating (clockwise from the top)

Aleppo
Baghdad
Aqaba
Cairo

Perhaps, but at least Clinton made a concerted effort.

And I guess you believe that had Gore been in office this would be different? Or maybe that Kerry can do better? No, I have some really bad news for you. It makes no real difference who is in office. Israel will decide and base their policies on what is best (in their minds) for Israel. <--- CR

Oh, yes it does!

The US has never been as pro-Israel as they are at this moment. From a strategic point, what with the wars going on and all Israel is a neccessary ally in the middle east. From an economic standpoint, we send them tons and tons of money every year, and even more in surplus military; we are directly responsible for the fact that Israel has the 4th-5th strongest military in the world, despite it's size.

From a personal standpoint, let me ask you: you don't think the president's Born-again religious beliefs have anything to do with his stance on Israel? Don't forget that his religion calls for a reunified Israel before Christ can be reborn; is that shaping our policy?

Cycloptichorn

Yes, and the most offensive thing about the policies of the religious right is how it is the Armageddon Agenda and assumes that by exhortation that every American Jew should be in accord which couldn't be less true.

And they've succeeded in fueling racism of the variety that Hitler exploited so effectively which is to focus on the "assimilation divide" first plucking from the flock all those hybrids who ought not to have interbred to begin with.

Jimmy Carter also made an effort. Sadat was killed. We've seen quite a bit of water over that dam(n).

To grasp the whole diabolical plot one must see the whole picture and include the huge disparity in wealth between the Oil Sheik and the palestinian street person.

Just as in California you no longer have Oakies, but many more Mexican Migrant workers who are treated the same while the descendants of Oklahoma mostly took Guthries advice and did go back to beautiful Texas etcetera - you no longer have tribes of bedouins comprising a significant percentage of the population of Islamic people, but rather you see an increasingly large "Great Unwashed" as if Kiplings India had somehow extended past Mecca and into the gutters of every Mediterranean city north south east and west.

Those who are out to get us (and I'm talking to those of us who are not threatened by either cultural or racial assimilation) have in common that they don't want to assimilate.

Their focus while assimilation is slowly occurring in spite of their efforts to stop it - will be on race, racial issues - and associated fear assigning violent characteristics to whoever their whim would have them target.

Sometimes I believe too much time is spent on racist agendas, and until we look at each other through the eyes of those who wrote our constitution, we will fail to see the answer or solution.

We need new leadership in the US. That will be a start. And we do need to restore alliances where we have injured them.

Bad rhetoric doesn't help.

Not everything has to come down American politics.

As for the question, was there ever any doubt, not really.

Being pro-Israel and imposing our will on Israel are two very different things Cy. We have been pro-Israel for a long time now, not just this president. Are we more pro-Israel now? I don't know, that seems to be a subjective issue, but I would not argue if you think we are.

As for Mr. Bush's Christian views shaping our foreign policy towards Israel, I really cannot say. But regardless of his policy toward Israel, Israel will still follow what they believe is in their best interests. I think that has been proven since they have often not followed US advice.

Oh, one point of clarification. Christianity does not say Christ will be reborn. The belief is that Christ will return to take believers home to eternal fellowship in heaven. Christ is alive and well and thus has no need to be reborn. (This is a very simplified explanation) Just wanted you to be accurate. :wink:

Freeduck writes:


Yes, and so did Carter and Reagan and Bush the First and so has Bush the second. Or do you think Colin Powell has made all those trips to Israel to enjoy the scenery?

The fact is, Israel isn't going to be dictated to by anybody as nobody but themselves seem to have their interests most at heart. Armchair diplomacy is effortless and inevitable and I personally think Israel could do it better. But I honestly don't know what my attitude would be if I should have to pull the corpse of my child out of a firebombed bus.

Fox, I'll agree with all those you named except the current Bush. I don't think there is any question that he has not made as strong an effort as his predecessors.

I don't think any country would or should act against their own best interest. Clearly, though, the occupations have not been in their best interest.

The dead child thing is always the trump card, yes? And can you put yourself in the place of a Palestinian parent? There's no way to avoid the fact that the violence stems from the occupation and the expansionist policies.

Freeduck, I can not only put myself in the place of a Palestinian parent but in the place of the displaced Palestinians in general. Has Israel been heavy handed with the Palestinians? Of course they have. Some say their occupation of the West Bank etc. is illegal; others argue that Israel won this territory fair and square when forced to defend themselves against those who intended to wipe them off the face of the map.

The dead child is a valid consideration however, just as 9/11 was our license to take measures to defend ourselves against further attacks.

As to whether the current administration has done more diplomatically with Israel than previous administrations, we'll have to see how the history is written. This administration is not as focused on photo ops as was the previous administration, so they sometimes don't get as much publicity.

Ok, Fox, I hear you on the other points. But I had to laugh when I read this.

Would you say the same thing about other countries? For Example

"North Korea will decide and base their policies on what is best for Israel."

or

"Iran will decide and base their policies on what is best for Iran."

and then there is, of course, Iraq.

That was a corker . . . i had avoided comment so as not to ratchet up Fox's paranoia level, however . . .

Of course I would. Are you trying to say that a country will decide their policies based on the interests of others? N. Korea will decide what they think is best for them and do it. That does not mean that they won't face consequences for what they do.

Hussein made decisions that he decided were in the best interests of Iraq. Those decisions led to actions taken by other countries against him. But still the decisions were made by him based on what he beleived were his best interests.

What Israel perceives as being in her best interests may not be so. But certainly bowing to whatever the US wants would obviously be to our best interests and Israel may not believe they are hers.

It would be a lot easier to separate the interests of the US and Israel if we weren't pumping economic and military aid to them.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

life is a board game designed to show that God is the baddest mutha fukka on the playground. We are pawns nothing more nothing less. that is what we were designed for. can't play a game without pieces. satan is gettin in his last rolls currently.

I think the Bush administration is actively involved in much diplomacy that isn't getting front page coverage, nor are they soliciting front page coverage during the negotiations, and others seem to suggest little or nothing is done that is not a photo op. And I'm the paranoid one?