Do you believe in souls?

yeah i dont like the Zen school i like Mahayana, Thervada and Vajrayana (i like Vaj the most)

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Godbars,

Alright, you've named the three major divisions of Buddhism. Zen is one of many sub-sets of Mahayana. Of all the Mahayana sects, Zen is the closest to Theravada. Tantric/Vajrayana Buddhism is properly a form of Mahayana as well, but is so far from the mainstream that it is usually treated as a separate School. Of "main-stream" Mahayana the some of the more extreme Pure Land sects are closer to Tantric than they are to Zen. Other Mahayana sects are closer to Zen. It really is more complicated than you seem to realize.

Tantric is certainly the most colorful of all the varied forms of Buddhism. If your are interested in that school you will want to read the Hundred Thousand Songs of Milrepa. This is a very important book to the Tantric filled with symbolism and metaphor, and as easily misunderstood as the esoteric books of Judaism. It is also poetically beautiful, though in a style that isn't exactly what most Westerners would curl up in front of a crackling fire on a winter's night to read.

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what type of buddhism is the tibetan/dalai lama buddhism, i thought it was vajrayana

and could buddhist monks really gather, harness and generate energy, or is just an urban legend

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His Holiness the Dali Lama is the highest ranking clergy in the Tantric, or Vajrayana School. Vajrayana means lightening bolt, and refers to the suddenness with which Enlightenment can occur.

Can buddhist Masters do supernatural things? They don't predict the future, control the weather or bend physical laws. Adepts are able to exercise extraordinary control over their bodily processes. Brain waves can be altered, metabolism slowed or increased, and for brief spans of time strength can be enhanced. Nothing mystical or supernatural, just the result of extreme mental focus. The effect of prayer flags and meditation cylinders is asserted sometimes, but there is zero evidence for it. Compassionate meditation certainly has an effect on the person following the discipline, but has no proven (or high-order evidence) to support the contention. Mental telepathy, astral-projection and other Psi "powers" are no better documented than those of gypsies or stage magicians.

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Ash, good post. That's consistent with what little I know of the broader picture. You really have a knack for pulling it all together in coherent packages.

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JLNobody wrote:

One can do both: seek scientific and philosophical formulas for their pragmatic value, and practice the blissful and sensitizing ignorance of zen. I guess that is a KIND of epistemological basis for our otherwise nonlogical statements.

Well, it's a basis for epistemological confusion, but as long as it's your confusion I have no problem with that.

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twyvel wrote:

How?I don't know.

Had you said naught but this, twyvel, there would be no need for any further discussion...

twyvel wrote:

Know?..I contend that beliefs and guesses are objects and objects do not have beliefs or make guesses.

...but then you make an assertion like this, and I feel compelled to add an observation.

You admit that you don't know how you know what you know, yet you contend that beliefs and guesses are objects. I might ask "how do you know that?" but I can pretty much anticipate your answer. I am, however, surprised that a non-dualist like yourself, who denies the distinction between subject and object, would identify anything as an object, and even ascribe qualities to those objects, as you have done here. Did you renounce non-dualism when I wasn't looking?

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Joe, to my knowledge amphibians are not confused. They may not swim or walk very well, but they are not confused. At least this one isn't.

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joefromchicago wrote:

Quote:

You admit that you don't know how you know what you know,

Yes, how can a thought know where thoughts comes from? (Oops, another object)

Quote:

yet you contend that beliefs and guesses are objects. I might ask "how do you know that?" but I can pretty much anticipate your answer.

Yes, and I can anticipate your next question, and the next etc. How do you know that?How do you know that?

Quote:

I am, however, surprised that a non-dualist like yourself, who denies the distinction between subject and object, would identify anything as an object, and even ascribe qualities to those objects, as you have done here. Did you renounce non-dualism when I wasn't looking?

Nondualism cannot be renounced, i.e. by whom, Smile

Yes you are correct joefromchicago, there are no ?'objects', they are simply the seeing of them. Language creates objects out of everything, or rather out of nothing. Might be better put, Beliefs and guesses are ?'the observing of them' and ?'the observing of them' does not have beliefs or make guesses....Or, What beliefs and guesses?

There is guessinnng.
There is believinnng.
There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

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twyvel wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

Quote:
You admit that you don't know how you know what you know,

Yes, how can a thought know where thoughts comes from? (Oops, another object)

Quote:
yet you contend that beliefs and guesses are objects. I might ask "how do you know that?" but I can pretty much anticipate your answer.

Yes, and I can anticipate your next question, and the next etc. How do you know that?How do you know that?

Quote:
I am, however, surprised that a non-dualist like yourself, who denies the distinction between subject and object, would identify anything as an object, and even ascribe qualities to those objects, as you have done here. Did you renounce non-dualism when I wasn't looking?

Nondualism cannot be renounced, i.e. by whom,

Yes you are correct joefromchicago, there are no ?'objects', they are simply the seeing of them. Language creates objects out of everything, or rather out of nothing. Might be better put, Beliefs and guesses are ?'the observing of them' and ?'the observing of them' does not have beliefs or make guesses....Or, What beliefs and guesses?

There is guessinnng.
There is believinnng.
There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

And is that your final guess and belief???

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Frank wrote:

"And is that your final guess and belief???"

What guess and belief ?

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Hey I photographed Eldrige Clever ! Nice guy.
a sold soul is a solid shawl.

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twyvel wrote:

Frank wrote:

"And is that your final guess and belief???"

What guess and belief ?

Quote:

There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

twyvel wrote:
Frank wrote:

"And is that your final guess and belief???"

What guess and belief ?

Quote:
There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

Precisely.

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This is in some respects like the classic dialogs one reads described in the zen literature. In such a case Twyvel might (or might not) just bow and walk away or serve Joe and Frank some tea. No Twyvel, no Joe, no Frank, no beliefs, no guesses--the taste of tea...or just: tasting.

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Except that making of the tea becomes the important part.

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..ing

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twyvel wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
twyvel wrote:
Frank wrote:

"And is that your final guess and belief???"

What guess and belief ?

Quote:
There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

Precisely.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

twyvel wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
twyvel wrote:
Frank wrote:

"And is that your final guess and belief???"

What guess and belief ?

Quote:
There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

Precisely.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

No, thank you.

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twyvel wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
twyvel wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
twyvel wrote:
Frank wrote:

"And is that your final guess and belief???"

What guess and belief ?

Quote:
There are no guessers or believers or guesses or beliefs.

Precisely.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

No, thank you.

Wow...you agreed with me a second time in one day.

This has got to be a record.

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Do you believe in souls?

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