Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

Dear Piffka,

When we probe into the history of English language, we find that there was still no written record of history of Britain when Julius Caesar (100-44 b.c.) invaded it, while Qu Yuan (340 - 278 b.c.) had already bestowed us some great poems. Because China has its long history, as one of the matrices of world civilization. No wonder we cannot find Lisao in The Top Five Hundred (English) Poems.

Simply put, Lisao means "many complaints" in Chinese, and "Encountering Sorrow" sounds poetic. That is, it expresses the poet's subjective thoughts and feelings, and the way it expresses is beloved of by scholars since then. By Tang Dynasty, Bai Juyi's The Song of a Guitar and A Song of Unending Sorrow got deeply beloved of by scholars, too. When in their disappointment or desperation, they would like to intone Lisao or "Song"s, or imitate the style to create their own poems. Comparing the three to the three most popular English poems, what difference have you found out?

Since Lisao is in the core of Chinese culture, it is worthwhile that you read through it and then fully digest it, although it is so long. Very Happy

You said " It is very interesting to imagine just what that quality or combination of traits is. Why do we love what we love? A difficult question!"

Indeed, it is a difficult question. What gave resonance when I read Lisao is that its excellent language skill that dealt with complex situation of his life. Many could complain, but few could complain with graceful wording and wonderful rhyme. Very Happy

Qu Yuan finally committed suicide (Lisao: Wide though the world, no wisdom can be found.I'll seek the stream where once the sage was drowned) by drowning himself in the stream. To this day, every year Chinese people commemorate him in the dragon boat festival.

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
Thank you for being patient enough to help me stumble along in this short course of Chinese literature. As you say, this literature is older than any in my native "colonized" tongue. What I can say on behalf of English is that it has an abundance of words and, I think, that must make it more available to providing translations. When I look at this English translation of "Encountering Sorrow" and see how carefully a rhyme & rhythm have been maintained... well, that is not small thing.

As you suggested, I have read it again... not as a story this time, but as a source of wisdom through its expressions. I think, since I was reading it in English, I disdained that as not having value since the words were not original. But, I was wrong. It is a fantastic poem and now that you describe it as a source of quotations that are used... it explains much more to me. I have selected a few of the lines which I could easily see using them to punctuate speech or writing, if anyone were clever enough to know & remember them.

I am ignoring that these words are not in Chinese... I am seeing them as images & expressions of truth that can be shared or compared to something happening in one's life. I think whoever translated this made it their life's work. It must have been a huge project.

So... I started out, thinking there will be just a few of the short & pithy lines that could be used as handy, literary quotations. Again, I was wrong.* I look at my list below and am shocked at how long it is. And I left out so many that could be useful to a person as a source of literary worth. (I do love quotations, as you may have noticed... seeing my profile.)

I have more questions than I will ask you now, but two stand out. What is the selinea? I can't find it online. What is the "jaspar pendent"? (I think that is a misspelling, too... pendant is a noun that means "an ornament hung from a necklace;" pendent is an "overhang."

So, for my own benefit and also for your amusement, Oristar, Wink

I have separated a few quotations. These are a few of the lines of "Encountering Sorrow" that I loved too much to leave behind. There were twice that many I wanted; that "odd & handy" quote which is the true love of a bibliophile.

Best,
Piffka

*Only twice? Very Happy

I have just begun to count.

Quote:

Celestial spheres my witness be on high

Life I adapted to the ancient way,
Leaving the manners of the present day;

As old age unrelenting hurried near,

Remote the eagle spurns the common range

All men had pleasures in their various ways

Thou canst not one by one the crowd persuade

His head at last in treachery did fall

The august heaven, with unbiased grace, (unbiased, not unbiassed)
All men discerns, and helps the virtuous race;

Whom should men take as guide except the sage?

Swift jade-green dragons, birds with plumage gold,
I harnessed to the whirlwind

But now the sun was sinking in the west;

The way was long, and wrapped in gloom did seem,

The dragons quenched their thirst beside the lake
...and tarried there in sport. * (tarried, not tarred)

a golden bough I sought
To brush the sun,

The gathering whirlwinds drove it from my sight

Idly my orchids into wreaths I bent.

As pledge I gave my belt of splendid sheen

Pleasure she worshipped, and no whim denied

The world is dark, and envious of my grace

How could I bear this harsh eternity?

herbs of magic worth

If two attain perfection they must meet

Away!" she cried, "set craven doubt aside,
If beauty's sought, there's none hath with thee vied.
What place is there where orchids flower not fair?
Why is thy native land thy single care?

"Now darkly lies the world in twilight's glow,
Who doth your defects and your virtue know?
Evil and good herein are reconciled;
The crowd alone hath nought but is defiled.
With stinking mugwort girt upon their waist,
They curse the others for their orchids chaste;
Ignorant thus in choice of fragrance rare,
Rich ornaments how could they fitly wear?
With mud and filth they fill their pendent bag;
Cursing the pepper sweet, they brawl and brag."

spiced rice I did present

And thus the wizard spake with omens bright

A convict toiled on rocks to expiate
His crime;

This gaudy age so fickle proved its will,

Viewing the orchids' and the peppers' plight
Why blame the rumex and selinea white?

With omens bright the seer revealed the way,

How might two hearts at variance accord? (two, not tow)

The way was long, and winding far and wide.

And marked the western sea as meeting-place.

I sang the odes. I trod a sacred dance,
In revels wild my last hour to enhance.

My slaves were sad, my steeds all neighed in grief,
And gazing back, the earth they would not leave.

Wide though the world, no wisdom can be found.

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Dear Piffka,

You're welcome. You see that poem is too old to be matched with old English. Well, I think translating the poem with old English is better than with modern English (basically, the translation that we read now is so modern, although there are some lines as "Illustrious name my royal sire hath found" and "Why lovest thou thy grace and purity, Alone dost hold thy splendid virtue high?" Very Happy

). And I think it is hard to find some scholar in English speaking countries who is accomplished in old English so as to that he could write poems or articles as good as ancient scholars did in Caesar's day, let alone a translator whose first language is not English (Hmm, native English scholars could help polish his work).

I'd thank the translator, however, because the translation is informative for non-native Chinese speakers and because (s)he had really translated his/her heart out (as you said "It must have been a huge project"). Very Happy

But, if a Chinese scholar said that reading Lisao written in modern Chinese is better than reading original Lisao, he would get ridiculed. So I understand why originally you disdained that as not having value since the words were not original.

"Selinea", in Chinese 江离, which is 蘼芜*. It is of green filamentous alga. Well, I cannot find the word selinea in any dictionaries in my hand or on the net for the time being. (*Chinese dictionary gives it the technical term as confervoide, which also cannot be found on the net)

Regarding "My jasper pendent rare I was beguiled, To leave, and to this depth then sank defiled", simply translated, the original Chinese line "惟兹佩之可贵兮，委厥美而历兹" means "My moral character is distinguished; but the people hate distinction."(or "My moral character is distinguished, but this quality has not yet been acknowledged by the general public.") I agree with you that "pendent" is the misspelling of "pendant".

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,

Thanks for the further explanations. I'm glad you see why I, at first, was looking at the story within the poem and not the words. I blanched, however, at the idea of having this poem be translated into old English. That is like a foreign language! Even middle English is practically unreadable. For example, here's a bit of English from the 14th century:

Quote:

Here bygynneth the Book of the Tales of Caunterbury
Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

I can read this (in fact, in high school I had to memorize it), but it is a struggle. So, yes... I promise to be content with the modern English version of Li Sao and be glad that I have any at all. I've ordered the two English translations from my favorite used book store (abebooks.com). One is a prose version, the other is the commemorative translation done in 1953 which, I think, is the one I copied in its entirety. There are some poems that I just need to have in book form! Wink

It is confusing to me that the translator would choose to translate moral character with jasper pendant. Is that what you meant? I've been looking around on the web, trying to see if there were an ancient Chinese symbolism for jasper. There seems to be a variety of symbolic meanings which make it more difficult, but nothing that seemed to speak directly to this.

I wonder if the translator is also mistranslating the selinea. Surely he wouldn't call a green algae "white" and imply that it is some sort of fragrant shrub. A conundrum... but small. Yes, I know that these are small quibbles, but I like to tie up these loose ends. Cool

I found a short translated segment of Li Sao here. It seems to have some different versions of the plants. I think one could probably spend a long time considering the significance of them and how the work of a gardener coincides with the work of a seeker.

I also found this explanation of the Tuen Yang festival and hoped you would read through it and see if it seemed accurate. I think it is wonderful (no surprise here!) that there would be such a famous holiday also known as Poet's Day. Very Happy

http://www.regit.com/hongkong/festival/tuenng.htm

It turns out that there is an active dragon boat racing group nearby: http://www.tacomadragonboat.org/ I don't know if I'll participate, but maybe I'll watch them. Sadly they don't mention anything at all about poetry. Shocked

In my web wanderings I happened on this short poem and the story to go with it. You may already know it, but I thought it was funny and might give you a laugh.

Quote:

...a story about Su Dongpo, one of the great Chinese poets who lived about a thousand years ago, in the Song dynasty.

Su Dongpo was an avid student of Buddhist teachings, and often discussed them with his good friend, the Zen master Foyin. The two lived across the river from one another - Su Dongpo's residence on the north side and Foyin's Gold Mountain Temple on the south side.

One day, Su Dongpo felt inspired and wrote the following poem:

I bow my head to the heaven within heaven
Hairline rays illuminating the universe
The eight winds cannot move me
Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus

Impressed by himself, Su Dongpo dispatched a servant to hand-carry this poem to Foyin. He felt certain that his friend would be just as impressed.

When Foyin read the poem, he immediately saw that it was both a tribute to the Buddha and a declaration of spiritual refinement. The "eight winds" in the poem referred to praise, ridicule, honor, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery - interpersonal forces of the material world that drove and influenced the hearts of men. Su Dongpo was saying that he had attained a higher level of spirituality, where these forces no longer affected him.

Smiling, the Zen master wrote "fart" on the manuscript and had it returned to Su Dongpo.

Su Dongpo had been expecting compliments and a seal of approval, so he was shocked when he saw what the Zen master had written. He hit the roof: "How dare he insult me like this? Why that lousy old monk! He's got a lot of explaining to do!"

Full of indignation, Su Dongpo ordered a boat to ferry him to the other shore as quickly as possible. Once there, he jumped off and charged into the temple. He wanted to find Foyin and demand an apology.

He found Foyin's door closed. On the door was a piece of paper, with the following two lines:

The eight winds cannot move me
One fart blows me across the river

This stopped Su Dongpo cold. Foyin had anticipated this hotheaded visit. Su Dongpo's anger suddenly drained away as he understood his friend's meaning. If he really was a man of spiritual refinement, completely unaffected by the eight winds, then how could he be so easily provoked?

With a few strokes of the pen and minimal effort, Foyin showed that Su Dongpo was in fact not as spiritually advanced as he claimed to be. Ashamed but wiser, Su Dongpo departed quietly.

This event proved to be a turning point in Su Dongpo's spiritual development. From that point on, he became a man of humility, and not merely someone who boasted of possessing the virtue.

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

Were there any dictionaries to help check out the ME or OE words? I am surprised that you have to struggle bitterly for reading them. Well, Li Sao is hard to read since it is so old. But comments in 2 thousand years help us Chinese readers a lot. Very Happy

Jasper is often used in Chinese idioms, like "冰清玉洁", which literally refers to "clear like ice and pure as jasper/jade", meaning "pure and noble". So the metaphor "jasper pendant" used by translator as "distinguished moral character" is acceptable. But I am not so sure if it is accepted by majority of native English speakers.

It is possible that the "selinea" is a mistranslation. I might discuss this with you later.

I've read through the brief introduction of the Tuen Yang festival. My opinions:

Tuen Ng Festival ==>> the Dragon Boat Festival

1)

Incorrect: "Chu Yuan, who died in 288 BC in the ancient Kingdom of Ch'u during the time of the Warring States (403-211 BC)"

Correct: "Chu Yuan, who died in 278 BC in the ancient Kingdom of Ch'u during the time of the Warring States (403-221 BC).

2)
Incorrect: To make matter worse, the old king was captured during the fighting.

Correct: The old king, Chu Huaiwang, was not captured, but deluded*, with 500 his underlings, into visiting Qin State, and detained. Finally the old king died there. The tragedy happened because the old king refused to accept Qu Yuan's advice of not going to Qin.

*: King of Qin State sent his envoy to tell the old king that Qin wanted to strike up a perpetual friendship with Chu and invited the old king to Qin, but in fact it was just a bait.

(Chu Yuan = Qu Yuan)

3) Original: Because of the poem, the festival is sometimes called Poet's Day or Patriotic Poet's Day

Yes, this is partially correct. Because, not just "because of the poem", but "because of what Qu Yuan had done in all his life".

4） A glutinous rice concoction, called ch'un tse in Cantonese or tsung tzu in Mandarin, is sold during this festival. In North China and Taiwan, the tsung tzu are triangular shaped, but in the south they are square.

In Pinyin, it is called Zongzi, 粽子 in Chinese, glutinous rice dumpling, or dumpling made of glutinous rice wrapped in bamboo or reed leeves.

I think Su Dongpo's "poem" (I bow my head to the heaven within heaven/Hairline rays illuminating the universe/The eight winds cannot move me/Sitting still upon the purple golden lotus ) was tasteless, while Foyin's comment was quite rude. Just because Buddhist teachings are faulty. And unfortunately, to this day, there is still no philosophy that is consummate since science is always developing. Very Happy

Being graceful is what I appreciate.

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Dear Oristar,
If this post seems slightly confused... it probably is. I have had two connection failures this morning. I have written it three times and lost it twice. I'm sure the second version was indeed the best, but I can't remember all the good things I said.

I am sorry that you didn't care for the story of the eight winds. I thought it was funny, obviously I have an earthier sense of humor than yours. I offer a small poem, maybe this will be more amusing:

THE PENITENT
I had a little Sorrow,
Born of a little Sin,
I found a room all damp with gloom
And shut us all within;
And, "Little Sorrow, weep," said I,
"And, Little Sin, pray God to die,
And I upon the floor will lie
And think how bad I've been!"

Alas for pious planning - -
It mattered not a whit!
As far as gloom went in that room,
The lamp might have been lit!
My little Sorrow would not weep,
My little Sin would go to sleep --
To save my soul I could not keep
My graceless mind on it!

So I got up in anger,
And took a book I had,
And put a ribbon on my hair
To please a passing lad,
And, "One thing there's no getting by --
I've been a wicked girl," said I:
"But if I can't be sorry, why,
I might as well be glad!"

Edna St. Vincent Millay

Very Happy

As to whether any religion can be considered consummate, I don't know. It is surely difficult to imagine. You expect science will lead the way. I see science as often messy and think the closest we may come to perfection is in art.

http://sfswww.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/labyround.gif

You asked about the dictionaries for OE and ME. Yes, there are several, here's one, but for ME I was exaggerating how difficult it is. It looks hard, but it is usually not necessary as long as you remember that the spellings are different. The pronunciations are strange and often add extra syllables, for example, Shoures soote is pronounced "shore-us sow-ta." Here is my translation of the lines in ME that I posted earlier:

Here bygynneth the Book of the Tales of Caunterbury
Here begins the book of the tales of Canterbury

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
When April (personified) with his showers sweet

The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
The drafts (winds) of March are pierced (stopped) at the root

And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
And bathes (fills) every vein with such (special) liquid,

Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Of which virtue (essence) engenders (creates) the flower;

Thank you for finding the inconsistencies in the website about the Dragon Boat Races. I have been reading about the Zongzi, looking at recipes and descriptions. There seem to be many varieties (at least, if I can believe these websites). One said that there are sweet & plain, sweet filled with mung bean paste or dates or walnuts, plus savory types with pork, chicken and vegetables. One place even suggested that the elderly shouldn't eat them (what about Qu Yuan?) and that a single one would more than fill you up. I also read about a giant one weighing two tons!

I had thought I would make a point to see the Dragon Boat races, but it appears my trip to the midwest coincides with the traditional date, the fifth day of the fifth lunar month. I was thinking that date would be June 5th, but apparently it is June 20th.

I am looking forward to two books I have recently ordered. One is the commemorative English translation edition, printed in the 1953/55 of Li Sao, and I assume it will be that beautifully written rhyming version. The other book is a scholarly prose translation. Together, I will soon start to enjoy a much better understanding of this poem, in hand. Meanwhile, I can only continue to express my appreciation for your kind attempts to help me as I stumble along reading the amazing literature of China.

When you explained about the Jasper Pendant, you said that native English readers might not understand or accept the symbolism. I think that we, like most other people, often expect jewelry will include symbolic aspects. It is true that the symbols of the west may not correspond exactly to the symbols of the east, but in this good new age we live in, where people have the advantage of learning about other cultures, it is fascinating to consider each other's traditions and possibly incorporate the best into our own lives. I am thinking that if I were to wear a jasper pendant, I may develop a more graceful sense of humor. I hope so. Wink

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

Please tell me who has said this --

"Science and research will, in the end, be the strongest source of safety. "

In comparison to what you said now -- " I see science as often messy and think the closest we may come to perfection is in art", what will you find out?

Safety is one of the necessary conditions of perfection. Since science will be the strongest source of safety, without science perfection will be nowhere to be found.

"To find it in art!" I decide to agree this, only for the sake of being poetic. Very Happy

Thanks for recommending the Millay's small poem. I'm glad that she was always glad ("Very very poor, but very very merry"! regardless she was wicked or innocent.). I think I might be called as an agnostic, not a Christian or Catholic.

I'm also glad that you said you have an earthier sense of humor. Enjoying oneself is good for one's health, after all. As for the story, not to mention what Su Dongpo encountered, Sakyamuni was often ridiculed by Zen masters, although absolute majority of Buddhists think Sakyamuni is the real one who cannot be moved by so called Eight Winds. Still, it doesn't mean that Zen masters have penetrated what Buddhism is about. They are not beyond the bounds of the religion at all. In the bounds, one can find what is funny between Su and Foyin; beyond the bounds, no funny episode to be found.

I understand now that it is not necessary to translate Li Sao into OE or ME, since the translator didn't want native English speakers to struggle to read OE or ME. And thanks for your translation.

It is very nice that you will continue to appreciate and research Li Sao. In some ways the Dragon Boat races would help you develop both your earthy sense and graceful sense of humor, because the races are held in the Poet's Day Very Happy

Best,
Oristar

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oristarA wrote:

Dear Piffka,

Please tell me who has said this --

"Science and research will, in the end, be the strongest source of safety. "

Dear Oristar,
Hmm? I wonder who would say something so smart? Wink

But Science is messy! It is messy in an experimental, let-me-try-this-possibility way. Even highly engineered things have degrees of tolerance and so, are imperfect. Science labs are notorious for the smells of raw chemicals, the spread of botanical dirt and the constant cleaning of animal cages. Fieldwork? You're out in the weather, picking up specimens, dealing with logistics and all the problems that crop up. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate science & scientists. I respect what they do & what they've accomplished and I am glad science brings us closer to safety. I am a science fan!

But, in my opinion, nothing beats art. There are so many choices of media and expression. Each form can appeal directly to me personally with one or more senses. Which do I like the most -- visual, musical, textile, theater, literary? I would have a hard time choosing between these. I am especially drawn to some art pieces, but that doesn't diminish any others. Mostly I value that each piece is an individual expression that some real person has created. Each piece of art tries to solve the problem -- how to make others see or sense my vision. And that is why I say; Art is more perfect.

Quote:

"To find it in art!" I decide to agree this, only for the sake of being poetic.

I am so glad that you decide to agree with me, especially because of the poetic part. Very Happy

I'm also glad you liked the Millay sentiment. For a while I thought I could find a poem of hers that would suit every situation. I'm not sure if that is true, but she is a deep well from which to draw clear thoughts and she has a great sense of humor.

Are you sure you don't like Su Dongpo? What about this story:

Quote:

One day, Su Dongpo invited several good friends to sample tea. One of the guests Si Maguang jokingly asked Su Dongpo, "The best tea is white while the best ink is black. The best tea feels heavy while the best ink feels light. Tea should be savored fresh while the ink gets better with age. Why do you love these two things that are so different from each other?"

Su Dongpo answered, "The best tea and the best ink both have fragrances, and that is their virtue; both of them are firm, and that is their character. Just as worthy persons may have different skin colors going from dark to pale, they may be handsome or ugly, but their virtue and conduct are the same."

White tea? Is that good? I mostly drink black coffee, I don't know teas well enough to know about white tea.

Quote:

The "eight winds" in the poem refer to praise, ridicule, honor, disgrace, gain, loss, pleasure and misery.

I agree that the poem was silly, but then I'm not a Buddhist. I think these eight winds are strong in people's hearts and not to be ignored. The loss & misery of the tsunami victims is not something to contemplate, but should cause us to have sympathy for them and work towards giving them help. People want praise to know when they do well, they work for gain and have only a short life to enjoy pleasure. Who does not prefer honor to ridicule & disgrace? (Obviously, no Buddhist!)

I also don't see how Dongpo could truly believe he was above those winds, sitting on his special purple and gold lotus. What could be more idyllic? Of course he isn't faced with problems and doesn't have to work. Likely, it is quite pleasurable to sit on a gold lotus and gives high honor, as well. So, to me, he was being silly. (You see. I have no historical knowledge of him, as you do. I see him fresh.)

Quote:

...absolute majority of Buddhists think Sakyamuni is the real one who cannot be moved by so called Eight Winds.

True, but he was like the Catholic's St. Augustine -- willing to be a wild profligate in his early youth who then turns into an ascetic. In the end he delivers an ultimatum of harsh maxims that go against the nature of people and dies. <shrug> Not that I am against moderation. Truly, I like the Taoist philosophy -- that makes sense to me.

I think it is so cool that you thought Li Sao ought to be turned into Middle English or Old English. Maybe you have something there... maybe it would give the English reader a better sense of the antiquity of the poem. That could be, in fact, the reason that the poem seemed to be written in a near-Shakespearean rhyme & rhythm. Hmmm. I just went back to check. It IS written in iambic pentameter, just as Shakespeare's plays were. Had you already noticed that?

I can't wait to get my Li Sao books, they should arrive by the end of next week. Meanwhile, I hope you have a weekend of enduring happiness.

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

When a painter is creating a work, stroke by stroke, you cannot see its perfection until it has been finished; and when a sculptor is carving a block of stone into a statue, chip by chip, there may be many imperfections while the sculpture is still unfinished. By analogy, science is still imperfect when it is in its experimental stage. Seen in this light, do you think whether you've adopted dual criteria, dear Piffka? Very Happy

I am not denying that art is important. History has bestowed upon us countless masterpieces of beauty which have added to the world's cultural diversity. However, science has so far taken only a small step on its great crusade. As Neil Armstrong might have said as he stepped onto the moon, 'That's one small step for science, one giant leap for mankind.' It is science that has given us a second sun when darkness falls; it is science that makes mortals fly in the sky like angels; it is science that serves us everywhere, and we cannot imagine how we would get along without it. In a word, science is the greatest art of the past, present and future! Very Happy

I highly appreciate Su Dongpo's art works (including his poems) except the one about "lotus", which is in fact the symbol of Buddhism. However, I kown a lot of things about him than you do.

White tea is slightly fermented tea, and the name is after the fact that white fine and soft hairs cover all over the tea. In China, it is choice tea with its special taste.

Have you read Zhuangzi?

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,

Well, you are right. (Those are happy words to hear, aren't they?)

You are right, those messy parts are mostly akin to the chips of marble and the paint clean-up. I admit absolutely to my dual criteria and confused nature. I agree with you that there is perfection in science to be found. And here I have been waiting so very patiently for you to point to the absolute perfection of mathematics. Very Happy

I think I was still smarting from the news about the Mission to Saturn and the finding that one of the important experiments (in the atmospheric winds, I think) had failed. It was one of many other experiments that were successful. This particular experiment had taken 80 man-years of work, including 18 dogged & now-wasted years by a single man. The reason it failed was simple. Mission Control in all its scientific wonder "forgot" to turn on the program. <sigh> I feel a lot of sympathy for that man.

However, once science is there and steady, up and running, it is a like a rock we're on. We don't pat it on the shoulder the way we would a good horse. I should appreciate it more, but instead I forget about it until I need it and it is not there, but meanwhile dwell on the virtues of a favorite poem or painting and play music that I like. Very Happy

I was surprised to see that the name of the thread was changed and meant to ask you why you did it.

Do you enjoy white tea? Would you recommend it?

Thank you for pointing me towards Zhuangzi. I have checked to see what is online and look forward to reading more. I see that I read this description of transformations in college, but did not remember it as his work.

Quote:

Once Zhuang Zhou dreamed he was a butterfly....

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

I appreciate your straightforward manner. Thanks for understanding.

Science research, sometimes like Li Sao encountering sorrows.
Really, we cannot say "Failure is the mother of success" with ease when learning of the news about the Mission to Saturn. I only hope the tragical mistake will not happen again.

Yes, science tells us how to laze scientifically. Very Happy

You'd forget science and indulge yourself into art, so that you could reach the highest realm of it. But please don't deny science has served you a solid foundation!

I think the new tilte is a bit better than the old one for the thread. Should you not think so, I'd recover it.

Sorry, I almost don't like to drink any tea.

Regarding Zhuangzi's butterfly, it seems so easy to crack his puzzle. Many people had seen that he was born, growing up and living as a crazy man, so it was him who dreamed of that he became the butterfly, and the reverse was untrue. I'm sorry I've broken up his poetic paradox.

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
I am willing to say when I'm wrong, particularly when it is pointed out so kindly. Yes, I enjoy the science of so many things while extolling the virtue of art. Science needs to bang its drum more often and more loudly though, since art is always going to be its more eye-catching sister.

I have been thinking more about that Cassini-Huyguens mission. Seven years is a long time to plan such a thing. During that time we have purchased a small home telescope and sometimes look at Saturn -- always the second most interesting object in the sky after the moon. The rings, you know, are visible even with a good pair of binoculars. The idea that somewhere up there is a human-made object dropping into the frigid and poisoned atmosphere is pretty amazing.

I received my two slim copies of Li Sao, which I am pleased to report, include both Li Sao and several other poetic works. Despite being small, really tiny books, I think I'll have my work cut out for me. Already though, I am enjoying the prose version -- not really prose, it is in poetic form, but not rhyming. Every four lines are followed by a discussion of what it means and what the symbolism refers to, for example, it says, the sweet-smelling flowers are allegorical symbols of the world's virtues, the others are symbolic of the world's evils.

As to the title, whatever name you want is fine with me.

I am surprised you don't drink tea often. Do you drink coffee?

You are clever about Zhuangzi's butterfly, but what of his fellow butterflies who saw him as a larva, as chrysalis and then finally a butterfly. Perhaps...

Best,
Piffka

I apologize for not having written before. I wrote last evening and lost the whole post. So disheartening, but I rose above it. Very Happy

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Dear Piffka,

Saturn ring is a wonderful vision in the sky, and I have been wondering why it can exist there amazingly. Hopefully now Cassini is showing off its strength orbiting Saturn. It will help us crack the secret.

Have you understood now every line that Li Sao utters?

I don't drink wine since I feel I cannot be perked up by it; and coffee? Well, it reacts like wine so I rarely drink it, too. Very Happy

Indeed you have a romantic imagination. You supposed that you were a butterfly and saw him as a larva, as chrysalis and then finally a butterfly. Wow, very poetic. But you are not a butterfly after all and cannot know what a butterfly thinks, so what you proved cannot be considered as witness. Like I bet you that a butterfly also has goldfish's memory, each flight a virgin experience. Well, you cannot prove it or disprove it, and so do I. Eventually, you and I find we are like a goldfish? Hehe, nope, your theory has made our heads go round and round. That is what Zhuang Zhou intended to "commit".

Why have you always lost your post, dear? I have a lot of sympathy with you. Very Happy

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,

I suppose that someday we will find out why Saturn has rings and other planets don't. Meanwhile, it is a beautiful thing to see.

It is interesting that you don't drink tea or coffee or wine. I am trying to think what you do drink. If you don't like wine, probably you don't like beer, either. Fruit juice and water?

So you think I am not a butterfly, eh? Hurumph. Wink

How do you know?

As for having read all of Li Sao, you are surely joking. I think I will spend the rest of winter and all spring reading it. Perhaps I will decide to memorize parts as well, for example, the reply the female spirit gave to Ch'u Yuan.

The author of the academic version, Jerah Johnson, says that he does not care for the 1953 version (the one in iambic pentameter). In my first quick skimming of the work, I noticed in his commentary on verse XXXIV, he says that "The Chinese recognize four major virtues: Prudence; Justice; Perseverence; and Moderation. Would you say that those are still the four major virtues? Or should I assume he was speaking of the Chinese people of the time of the poem?

Thank you for imagining for a moment that I might be a butterfly, even a dim-witted one. You know, we butterflies live but a few short days and can't afford to spend our time worrying too much about reality.

The problem with my computer is strange, my friend. I will be carefully composing a beautiful response to send you, and I am careful and I do think hard about these, but suddenly keying doesn't result in any letters appearing on my screen... then my mouse won't work. Then the Microsoft Internet Explorer says "program not responding." The only thing to do is to try to take some quick notes of what I'd written, then I have to turn off my machine. I think I will have to switch to the apple computer. We now have two, but just when things seem to be totally broken, the computer, as now, suddenly behaves itself. It is a mystery. I am going to buy a new Mac Mini and install that alongside this old HP computer.

I have learned to turn off my email software while on a2k and that seems to keep the system stable. You see, the science here is a little shaky, or else my technical grasp of it is incomplete.

Then, I'm taken in again by a well-behaved computer and relax into using the system which is more familiar. Probably I have spyware systems watching my every move. That is what I think. Very Happy

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Oristar,

After writing about how awful my computer stability is, I thought, I may lose the post. So I submitted it quickly before it were lost.

I did mean to tell you that I have been busy the last two days with my volunteer job at the nearby public library. For several years I have managed their book sales. Many people donate their used books (It is hard for me to imagine anyone giving up their books, but people do... they move, they die or they just don't need to hold onto their things.) Yesterday and today I have worked with a group of other volunteers getting ready for tomorrow's book sale. We set up the library meeting room with tables of books for sale -- I estimate there were 15,000 books. Half or more will sell, and the rest will be given away at the end of the day. The volunteers often choose and buy books they like while they are working. Today, I bought a beautiful old volume of Chinese poems, translated by Arthur Waley. It is a very nice book of poems to augment the poems I may find on the internet. There are 325 pages of poems, not so well-identified as I might like and no original Chinese to puzzle out, but each identified with the English title, author and sometimes a date.

Here is one that has struck me:

Fighting South of the Castle
Anonymous (circa 124 B.C.)

The fought south of the Castle,
They died north of the wall.
They died in the moors and were not buried.
Their flesh was the food of crows.
"Tell the crows we are not afraid;
We have died in the moors and cannot be buried.
Crows, how can our bodies escape you?"
The waters flowed deep
And the rushes in the pool were dark.
The riders fought and were slain:
Their horses wander neighing.
By the bridge there was a house.
(There is no trace of it left.)

Was it sourth, was it north?
The harvest was never gathered.
How can we give you your offerings:
You served your Prince faithfully,
Though all in vain.
I think of you, faithful soldiers;
Your service shall not be forgotten.
For in the morning you went out to battle
And at night you did not return.

A nice poem, both the sentiment and it saying "moor" reminds me of a poignant poem I copied down from a museum exhibit in Scotland.

The 1715 Rising is crushed at Sheriffmuir
There's some that say that we wan
And some say that they wan
And some say that nane
wan at a' man:
But one thing I'm sure
That at Sheriffmuir
A battle there was that I saw, man.

And we ran, and they ran
And they ran, and we ran
And we ran, and they ran awa', man.

These are the meanings of the Scottish dialect words:
wan=won
nane= none
a'= all
awa'=away

For whatever reason my computer is working almost perfectly, today. So strange... but who can complain? Not me!

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

We know rotundity is a true steady state, so it is so surprising that the rings of Saturn seem to have the steady state, too. However, the rings are one of the great beauties that nature bestows upon us.

I drink mineral water and coca/pepsi cola and fruit juice. Wine tastes fine, but my throat would be so easy to be burned by it. So I have to give it up. Very Happy

Now you see, of course I don't smoke either.

Certainly I know you are not a butterfly. I remember more than 2000 years ago, when you echoed Zhuang Zhou's point, saying you were a butterfly, I could not exactly disprove it. Now times have changed. The highly developed science has proved that all humans have 99% same genes, which are definitely different to a butterfly's. So it is very clear that Piffka is not a butterfly. But ten thousand years from now, when I see a butterfly flying around tart apples-bearing bough in your orchard, I might say "it might be Piffka; she has made her poetic ideas as a laser holographic butterfly. The scientific breakthrough has allowed her to convert her brain waves into any beautiful vision as she wishes."

Take time to read Li Sao. Very Happy

I think Jerah Johnson has just spoken of the traditional virtues of Chinese. China's economy has been soaring recent years because of Chinese began to give emphasis to American values. Their traditional virtues have been shocked by American ones, and the Chinese have been forced to begin Americanizing their culture, so it is not easy to describe what virtues today's Chinese cherish. Some people moan that today's Chinese are irresolute. However, the tsunami has focused all Chinese attention on its victims, as it has for all countries of the world. I think the Chinese will finally discover their virtues and be proud of them.

It sounds that the OS of your comp is not WinXP, which is far more stable than Win9X and can ward off most of spyware.

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Piffka,

Speaking of the poems of fallen heroes, the best-known one in China is Qu Yuan's Guo Shang (Fallen Heroes):

Fallen Heroes

Wielding Wu spears and clad in rhino armor,
Chariots cross and soldiers clash.
Flags block out the sun and the enemy is like clouds,
Arrows shower down and warriors charge.
Assaulting our formation and attacking our ranks,
Left flank horse felled and right flank hurt.
Ditch the wheels and bind the horses,
Raise the sticks and beat the drums.

Sun goes down and gods in rage,
Fiercely killing all and leaving them in the wild.
Go never retreat and push on never to return,
The fields are far and the journey there long.
Carrying long swords and clasping Qin bows,
Heads cleaved from bodies and hearts without regret.
Bold indeed and mighty too,
Stalwart to the end and indomitable.
Death comes and spirits freed,
Ah! thy souls be champions of the infernal host.

What would the battle of Sheriffmuir enlighten us? How to keep clear-headed in a confused battle?

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,

My OS is Windows XP (Home Edition) and so you'd think that I wouldn't have such trouble. I also have triple spyware protection (from Google, from Zone Alarm, and from Norton Anti-Virus). Sometimes I think that these software packages end up arguing over which is in control and that may be part of my problem. Oh well. If I "hold my tongue just so," (that's American slang for being very, very careful) and keep just a few windows open, the computer usually works. I have refrained from shifting to the other computer because I have a lot of favorite internet sites, emails, email addresses, documents and pictures that would be some trouble to organize and move, and I've found that some of the conveniences of Windows (like emailing links and copying pictures) are not so easy in an Apple environment.

I do like thinking of rotundity as a steady state, especially in reference to Saturn. I think a sphere may be my favorite shape.

I am glad to hear that China is doing a lot for the tsunami victims. The toll of the disaster is nearly unbelievable. I'll post the number dead and missing according to the London Times this morning. If you add them together, it is nearly 200,000, most of whom died within four hours of each other. That, in itself, is a terrible shock to all life and an awful terrible tragedy to imagine.

Quote:

Total dead: 150,664 (146,607 missing)
Indonesia: 95,992 (132,172)
Sri Lanka: 38,195 (5,637)
India: 10,749 (5,640)
Thailand: 5,374 (3,132)
East Africa: 137
Maldives: 82 (26)
Malaysia: 74
Burma: 59
Bangladesh: 2

Each one gone was someone cherished by family and friends, someone who had little inkling of his or her fate. The director of the orphanage in India contacted us and said that not only had there been many deaths on the coast in his area, but a fisherman who had been generous in supplying the school and home with fish to supplement the foods from their gardens had died. They were in mourning for him personally, as well as other friends. The orphanage was inland and escaped damage but the director had many people come to him and ask for help. Even though fishing has resumed, few people want to eat the fish because they fear contamination from what the fish may be eating. It is very sad that their lives are so disrupted.

Oristar wrote:

But ten thousand years from now, when I see a butterfly flying around tart apples-bearing bough in your orchard, I might say "it might be Piffka; she has made her poetic ideas as a laser holographic butterfly. The scientific breakthrough has allowed her to convert her brain waves into any beautiful vision as she wishes."

Haha. Has anyone ever told you that you have a vivid imagination and a great memory? I think it is wonderful to think I might be able to create that butterfly as a holographic image and put it into one of my favorite poetic images. Good idea, Oristar!!

I am interested and very glad to hear that you do not smoke. I had read somewhere that many people in China smoked. Of course, we all know it is not good for health, but still, it is a habit difficult to break. I used to smoke, you may be interested, and was able to stop after taking some acupuncture treatments. The acupuncturist was from this country but had trained in China for ten years. At the time (nearly 20 years ago) I knew nothing about the technique and did not believe it would work. I am glad to report that despite myself, after a few treatments and with complaints I lost interest in cigarettes. I don't drink alcohol often -- it burns my stomach, not my throat.

You say that Chinese people have switched to American values. The values I would point to for Americans are liberty, individual expression, honesty, kindness and hard work. I know these are not the values expressed by public media, which seem to be an intense desire for status symbols, power and money. These sell on TV but are not so prevalent in my world. Very Happy

Does that surprise you?

The poem by Qu Yuan, Fallen Heroes, is a frightening thing! Heads cleaved from bodies? What an image! I have to ask... would that be real "Rhino" armor? I like this line very much:

Quote:

The fields are far and the journey there long.

Most of these poems of war are meant to "bang the drum" for heroism, I think. The little poem from Sheriffmuir that I mentioned does something different. To me, it expresses the futility of war. "They ran, we ran, we ran, they ran... then both sides claimed victory." It describes a real event, as many of the war poems do.

Sheriffmuir was just about the last battle between the forces of protestant England against the forces of catholic Scotland until the definitive Battle of Culloden, thirty years later. Sheriffmuir was also a battle of errors -- the flanks of the opposing sides were incorrectly placed and actually overlapped. That was the reason for each side running, as they tried to regain some kind of position. Though the English lost more men, they stayed on the battlefield -- the reason both sides could claim victory. The English were also trained military while the Scots were not. Worse, the leader of the Scots, the Earl of Mar, later switched sides and fought for the English. It was disastrous all around as most of the valiant Jacobite Rebellion could be described.

I think that the unknown writer of that little poem recognized the futility of the battle and his cause behind it, though it enveloped all of the highlands for generations and is still a source of bitterness today because of things that were done later, notably the Highland Clearances. It is a plaintive voice which is why I like it.

The history behind all of this is that Queen Anne, a Royal Stuart, died in 1714, and was succeeded by a cousin, a German prince, King George I. He had grown up in Germany, could speak little English and was not well-loved except by the Protestants, who feared a return to the Catholic monarchy of her father. Catholic rule had been removed when King James VII of Scotland and II of England was deposed and exiled to France. England put first the Dutch monarch William and his wife Mary (who was eldest daughter to James VII & II), and then Mary's younger sister (again, a daughter of James VII & II), Princess Anne, on the English throne.

The son of King James VII & II was called King James III though he never was king of England or anyplace at all. He was the figurehead at the time of Sheriffmuir. It was his son, Bonnie Prince Charlie, whom the Scots later tried to return to power in the highland wars that ended with Culloden. For everyone interested in Scottish history, those are key battles.

What might be more interesting to you is that it is only recently that Scotland has had any return to power with the Stone of Scone replaced in Edinburgh followed by the establishment of their own parliament after the Scotland Act of 1998. That was the beginning of the re-establishment of the first Scottish Parliament since 1707.

This website provides a much clearer explanation of the Jacobite Uprisings, plus it has some music of the period. http://www.contemplator.com/history/jacobite.html

I hope my little overview of Scottish history hasn't been too boring to you. I am very fond of Scotland.

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

It might be the poor contact at the junctions of cables, cards and and other hardware of your computer. Be sure to keep the contact parts clean. I've encountered the same problem as you have, and the clearance of the contact parts made the comp work fine again. I guess DIY may be not your cup of tea, so you might have someone to help you out. Because I believe Winxp works fine. PC is fine, Apple fine, and Macintosh fine, all fine! Very Happy

It is very sad to hear there have been so many victims who lost their life in the tsunami. Well, it is a great lesson to tell us that readiness is all.

What acupuncture can do is very limited. I'm glad it is good for you.

From your point of view of American values, I've seen a mind of independence, which is in fact the core of American values! Regardless of what the public media would preach! That is cool!

"Rhino armour" refers to the armour made out of rhinoceros leather.

I've known what the battle of Sheriffmuir was about before saying "What would the battle of Sheriffmuir enlighten us? How to keep clear-headed in a confused battle? " No, we don't want war; but sometimes we have to fight with war criminals. The American people didn't want war, but the Sept. 11th attacks forced them to launch the war on terror, which is a just war. The CIA made a serious mistake in their interpretation of the intelligence about WMD in Iraq, but both Kerry and Bush believed it, and that was how the war in Iraq got started. The situation is now beyond retrieval. All Bush can do now is to stop the war at the minimum cost. He said only yesterday that U.S. forces will pull out of Iraq, if the new Iraqi govt asks the U.S. to leave. Very well said. On this point, he has kept a clear head in the 'confusion of battle'.

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
I will take your advice and check the connections I know about. All of this was handled when I moved my office around a few months ago. At the same time I began using a wireless keyboard and mouse... not sure I like them because there is a slight hesitation, but it is very convenient. Perhaps they are the cause of all my problems, perhaps I need to replace the batteries. It is, as you imagine, something of a mystery to me. Very Happy

I imagine acupuncture is limited... as are most things.

Readiness is all? Very good! Do you know of the Boy Scouts? Their motto is "Be Prepared."

Were there rhinoceroses in China? I thought that was an African animal.

I apologize for boring you with Scottish history. I didn't think you'd know about that little chapter of history. Futility of war vs. keeping clear-headed in battle? I will have to think about that. Perhaps both ideals are within those few words.

I appreciate your understatement of the unpleasantness of the Iraq war. I too was pleased that President Bush said the United States would leave if the new goverment asked us to do so. That was a question which Condoleeza Rice did not answer a few weeks ago. She seemed surprised at the thought.

In honor of that possibility here is a poem from my new collection. You may be able to tell me more about it.

Best,
Piffka

Hearing that His Friend Was Coming Back from the War
Wang Chien (circa A.D. 830)

In old days those who went to fight
In three years had one year's leave.
But in this war the soldiers are never changed;
They must go on fighting till they die on the battle-field.
I thought of you, so weak and indolent,
Hopelessly trying to learn to march and drill.
That a young man should ever come home again
Seemed about as likely as that the sky should fall.
Since I got the news that you were coming back,
Twice I have mounted to the high hall of your home.
I found your brother mending your horse's stall;
I found your mother sewing your new clothes.
I am half afraid; perhaps it is not true;
Yet I never weary of watching for you on the road.
Each day I go out at the City Gate
With a flask of wine, lest you should come thirsty.
Oh that I could shrink the surface of the World,
So that suddenly I might find you standing at my side.

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Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

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