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Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

 
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 06:58 am
Hi Piffka,

I feel that the third poem is much easier to be understood than the second one, which was a delicate subject.

IF STILL YOUR ORCHARDS BEAR

==>> If your orchards still bear fruit

1) Brother, that breathe the August air
Ten thousand years from now,
And smell--if still your orchards bear
Tart apples on the bough--

==>> the cool air of the autumn of 10,000 years from now blows gently,and, smells sour apples on the bough in your orchards. Brother, if only your orchards still bear fruit.

2) The early windfall under the tree,
And see the red fruit shine,
I cannot think your thoughts will be
Much different from mine.

==>> Ripe apples are loverly and sweet, yet they would fall from the tree early. Great minds think alike, we are all proud of our "fruit" yet we are all sad because the fruit gone with wind.

3) Should at that moment the full moon
Step forth upon the hill,
And memories hard to bear at noon,
By moonlight harder still,
Form in the shadow of the trees, --
Things that you could not spare
And live, or so you thought, yet these
All gone, and you still there,

==>> Emotions are so sad at noon, and they worsen in the moonlight. The trees cast their shadows at you, and make you more upset with all these things. But time's sickle will cut anything sweet or bitter and make anything as common as dirt once again, and you will be still there.

4) A man no longer what he was,
Nor yet the thing he'd planned,
The chilly apple from the grass
Warmed by your living hand--

==>> Alas, the time effect has changed you. You hold the cold pretty windfall in your hand, trying to warm it and smoothing your frustrated mood.

5)I think you will have need of tears;
I think they will not flow;
Supposing in ten thousand years
Men ache, as they do now.

==>> Weeping yourself out may make you feel better. You will not let the tears go, however, since you are always so strong. But the things hurt. Men ten thousand years from now will have the anguish of spirit as they do at present.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2004 06:44 pm
Dear Oristar,
I think that you as poetically inclined as Millay. I am enjoying your thoughts and what you see in these poems.

Your analysis of the "Orchard" poem and the last one (which was, indeed, more delicate) are quite wonderful. I am so impressed with your ability to wield her images and make them your own.

I have always thought of the "Orchard" poem as the lament for a man who has died before his time, but I see now that it can also express the feelings of someone who is frustrated. That is the good thing about reading a poem with someone else... at least for me, I can see much more in it than I can see by myself.

I particularly like thinking of an individual 10,000 years from now. There is a saying "It will all be one in a hundred years." But in 10,000 years, where will we be??

I hope that all of this discussion of Millay's works hasn't stopped YOU from writing. It seems obvious that you have the poetic spirit beating in your heart.

Best,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 10:48 am
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2004 11:23 am
Dear Oristar,
You got it! Isn't she wonderful? Not so very pessimistic as you first thought. Many people know that poem by heart, or at least the line "We were very tired, we were very merry." I don't know if people do this in China (?) but in the states, young lovers may (especially on the night they first realize they are in love) stay up all night, holding hands, being delighted in each other's company and enjoying everything together. It is a fine thing to watch the sun rise with someone you love. I suppose you don't have to be young and in love to stay up all night... but it helps!

Because Millay spent so much time in New York City, I assume the ferry she writes about is the Staten Island ferry. It used to be free (or so low in cost as to be almost free) for walk-on passengers. It runs continuously, going between the south end of Manhattan Island and Statan Island, back and forth all day and all night long. A loving couple, even if they hadn't much money, could stay on board and enjoy the trip over and over again. I like how she uses the image of fruit to portray an offering of nature, and that probably has parallels in the Orchard poem.

Here's another poem that is written as a prayer to express ESVM's love for the simple things of nature (even some that are not necessarily thought of as beautiful... like gray skies). The last two lines are startling, but, I think, she is saying that she is afraid she might burst if any more beauty come into her life. The "burning leaf" refers to the red color of an autumn leaf.

Btw --"I prithee" is an old form and means, "I pray you". You'll also notice that she continues to use the British spelling for words (grey, colour, etc.).

I hope you like it!
Piffka


GOD'S WORLD

O world, I cannot hold thee close enough!
Thy winds, thy wide grey skies!
Thy mists, that roll and rise!
Thy woods, this autumn day, that ache and sag
And all but cry with colour! That gaunt crag
To crush! To lift the lean of that black bluff!
World, World, I cannot get thee close enough!

Long have I known a glory in it all,
But never knew I this:
Here such a passion is
As stretcheth me apart. --Lord, I do fear
Thou'st made the world too beautiful this year;
My soul is all but out of me, --let fall
No burning leaf; prithee, let no bird call.

ESVM
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 11:53 am
Dear Piffka,

Is it a ship of the Staten Island Ferry? It looks pretty and the ferry has been modernized.
http://www.wfasfm.com/Staten%20Island%20Ferry.jpg

GOD'S WORLD

O world, I cannot hold thee close enough!
Thy winds, thy wide grey skies!
Thy mists, that roll and rise!
Thy woods, this autumn day, that ache and sag
And all but cry with colour! That gaunt crag
To crush! To lift the lean of that black bluff!
World, World, I cannot get thee close enough!

===>>> Breathtaking sights of Mother Nature! Go hug the Mother, and
experiencing the great return to God's bosom.

Long have I known a glory in it all,
But never knew I this:
Here such a passion is
As stretcheth me apart. --Lord, I do fear
Thou'st made the world too beautiful this year;
My soul is all but out of me, --let fall
No burning leaf; prithee, let no bird call.

====>>> Do you remember what happened after Moses saw God's back, Piffka? People dared not to look at his face because Moses'face shone after meeting with God. Now Millay said she "afraid she might burst if any more beauty come into her life", obviously it is an extension of the Bible's description and echoed the poem's headline well -- God's world made Millay's beauty shine!

Best
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 12:15 am
Dear Oristar,
Hi! Yes. That's the ferry! I was just on it a couple of years ago. Have you ever been to New York City? The ride is short, but you have a fantastic view of the city and a close cruise past the Statue of Liberty.

As to the poem, I'm sure you are right, that Millay was referring to Christian tradition. I re-read that part of the Bible to find the scene about Moses. It is hard to know what to make of that... do you think that is a description that meant his skin color was changed? Or that he was illumined from within? Or something else... streams of light flowing from his face? According to the New Advent Encyclopedia (the Roman Catholic online reference and one of my frequently visited sites) that experience was a turning point for Judeo-Christian beliefs.

What Millay describes is what I would call experiencing the numinous... an intimate sense of immortality or a sudden and extraordinary feeling of life being lived at the moment. It is wonderful to get it written down by a poet, I think. My words just sound dull when compared to the spare writing of EStVM.

Millay was raised a Christian and kept strong literary ties to her upbringing, even if her personal affairs were somewhat unorthodox. I think she was usually a very good person, if not perfect. There is a long poem by Millay called "The Suicide" which describes the after-death experiences of a person who commits suicide. She is warmly welcomed into heaven and lovingly attended to by God... but... well, it is a poem you might enjoy. There is another poem called "The Blue Flag in the Bog" (a blue flag is a kind of flower) which also contains a dialog with God. Those are both so long that I think they may too much to post here. If you're interested, they're available on here (for the Blue Flag poem) and on another page of this link for the other.

This is a shorter poem by Millay that describes a central part of the Christian religious experience and shows some of her religious feeling. I'm just not sure what to make of it though. She seems to be telling it from the point of view of the hill. Maybe it makes more sense to you.

THE LITTLE HILL

OH, here the air is sweet and still,
And soft's the grass to lie on;
And far away's the little hill
They took for Christ to die on.

And there's a hill across the brook,
And down the brook's another;
But, oh, the little hill they took,--
I think I am its mother!

The moon that saw Gethsemane,
I watch it rise and set:
It has so many things to see,
They help it to forget.

But little hills that sit at home
So many hundred years,
Remember Greece, remember Rome,
Remember Mary's tears.

And far away in Palestine,
Sadder than any other,
Grieves still the hill that I call mine,--
I think I am its mother!



Good luck deciphering that one! I'll be interested in hearing what you think...
Piffka
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 05:27 am
This has been a really interesting thread, and I have learned a lot about Millay, a poet I'm not terribly familiar with. Recuerdo reminds me a bit of Christina Rossetti's Goblin Market. I think Oristar is doing a fine job in the interpretation of Millay, you have a natural poetic soul. I'll post Goblin Market here just for fun (Sorry Oristar, it's long, but worth the read):

Morning and evening
Maids heard the goblins cry:
"Come buy our orchard fruits,
Come buy, come buy:
Apples and quinces,
Lemons and oranges,
Plump unpecked cherries-
Melons and raspberries,
Bloom-down-cheeked peaches,
Swart-headed mulberries,
Wild free-born cranberries,
Crab-apples, dewberries,
Pine-apples, blackberries,
Apricots, strawberries--
All ripe together
In summer weather--
Morns that pass by,
Fair eves that fly;
Come buy, come buy;
Our grapes fresh from the vine,
Pomegranates full and fine,
Dates and sharp bullaces,
Rare pears and greengages,
Damsons and bilberries,
Taste them and try:
Currants and gooseberries,
Bright-fire-like barberries,
Figs to fill your mouth,
Citrons from the South,
Sweet to tongue and sound to eye,
Come buy, come buy."

Evening by evening
Among the brookside rushes,
Laura bowed her head to hear,
Lizzie veiled her blushes:
Crouching close together
In the cooling weather,
With clasping arms and cautioning lips,
With tingling cheeks and finger-tips.
"Lie close," Laura said,
Pricking up her golden head:
We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots?"
"Come buy," call the goblins
Hobbling down the glen.
"O! cried Lizzie, Laura, Laura,
You should not peep at goblin men."
Lizzie covered up her eyes
Covered close lest they should look;
Laura reared her glossy head,
And whispered like the restless brook:
"Look, Lizzie, look, Lizzie,
Down the glen tramp little men.
One hauls a basket,
One bears a plate,
One lugs a golden dish
Of many pounds' weight.
How fair the vine must grow
Whose grapes are so luscious;
How warm the wind must blow
Through those fruit bushes."
"No," said Lizzie, "no, no, no;
Their offers should not charm us,
Their evil gifts would harm us."
She thrust a dimpled finger
In each ear, shut eyes and ran:
Curious Laura chose to linger
Wondering at each merchant man.
One had a cat's face,
One whisked a tail,
One tramped at a rat's pace,
One crawled like a snail,
One like a wombat prowled obtuse and furry,
One like a ratel tumbled hurry-scurry.
Lizzie heard a voice like voice of doves
Cooing all together:
They sounded kind and full of loves
In the pleasant weather.

Laura stretched her gleaming neck
Like a rush-imbedded swan,
Like a lily from the beck,
Like a moonlit poplar branch,
Like a vessel at the launch
When its last restraint is gone.

Backwards up the mossy glen
Turned and trooped the goblin men,
With their shrill repeated cry,
"Come buy, come buy."
When they reached where Laura was
They stood stock still upon the moss,
Leering at each other,
Brother with queer brother;
Signalling each other,
Brother with sly brother.
One set his basket down,
One reared his plate;
One began to weave a crown
Of tendrils, leaves, and rough nuts brown
(Men sell not such in any town);
One heaved the golden weight
Of dish and fruit to offer her:
"Come buy, come buy," was still their cry.
Laura stared but did not stir,
Longed but had no money:
The whisk-tailed merchant bade her taste
In tones as smooth as honey,
The cat-faced purr'd,
The rat-paced spoke a word
Of welcome, and the snail-paced even was heard;
One parrot-voiced and jolly
Cried "Pretty Goblin" still for "Pretty Polly";
One whistled like a bird.

But sweet-tooth Laura spoke in haste:
"Good folk, I have no coin;
To take were to purloin:
I have no copper in my purse,
I have no silver either,
And all my gold is on the furze
That shakes in windy weather
Above the rusty heather."
"You have much gold upon your head,"
They answered altogether:
"Buy from us with a golden curl."
She clipped a precious golden lock,
She dropped a tear more rare than pearl,
Then sucked their fruit globes fair or red:
Sweeter than honey from the rock,
Stronger than man-rejoicing wine,
Clearer than water flowed that juice;
She never tasted such before,
How should it cloy with length of use?
She sucked and sucked and sucked the more
Fruits which that unknown orchard bore,
She sucked until her lips were sore;
Then flung the emptied rinds away,
But gathered up one kernel stone,
And knew not was it night or day
As she turned home alone.

Lizzie met her at the gate
Full of wise upbraidings:
"Dear, you should not stay so late,
Twilight is not good for maidens;
Should not loiter in the glen
In the haunts of goblin men.
Do you not remember Jeanie,
How she met them in the moonlight,
Took their gifts both choice and many,
Ate their fruits and wore their flowers
Plucked from bowers
Where summer ripens at all hours?
But ever in the moonlight
She pined and pined away;
Sought them by night and day,
Found them no more, but dwindled and grew gray;
Then fell with the first snow,
While to this day no grass will grow
Where she lies low:
I planted daisies there a year ago
That never blow.
You should not loiter so."
"Nay hush," said Laura.
"Nay hush, my sister:
I ate and ate my fill,
Yet my mouth waters still;
To-morrow night I will
Buy more," and kissed her.
"Have done with sorrow;
I'll bring you plums to-morrow
Fresh on their mother twigs,
Cherries worth getting;
You cannot think what figs
My teeth have met in,
What melons, icy-cold
Piled on a dish of gold
Too huge for me to hold,
What peaches with a velvet nap,
Pellucid grapes without one seed:
Odorous indeed must be the mead
Whereon they grow, and pure the wave they drink,
With lilies at the brink,
And sugar-sweet their sap."

Golden head by golden head,
Like two pigeons in one nest
Folded in each other's wings,
They lay down, in their curtained bed:
Like two blossoms on one stem,
Like two flakes of new-fallen snow,
Like two wands of ivory
Tipped with gold for awful kings.
Moon and stars beamed in at them,
Wind sang to them lullaby,
Lumbering owls forbore to fly,
Not a bat flapped to and fro
Round their rest:
Cheek to cheek and breast to breast
Locked together in one nest.

Early in the morning
When the first cock crowed his warning,
Neat like bees, as sweet and busy,
Laura rose with Lizzie:
Fetched in honey, milked the cows,
Aired and set to rights the house,
Kneaded cakes of whitest wheat,
Cakes for dainty mouths to eat,
Next churned butter, whipped up cream,
Fed their poultry, sat and sewed;
Talked as modest maidens should
Lizzie with an open heart,
Laura in an absent dream,
One content, one sick in part;
One warbling for the mere bright day's delight,
One longing for the night.

At length slow evening came--
They went with pitchers to the reedy brook;
Lizzie most placid in her look,
Laura most like a leaping flame.
They drew the gurgling water from its deep
Lizzie plucked purple and rich golden flags,
Then turning homeward said: "The sunset flushes
Those furthest loftiest crags;
Come, Laura, not another maiden lags,
No wilful squirrel wags,
The beasts and birds are fast asleep."
But Laura loitered still among the rushes
And said the bank was steep.

And said the hour was early still,
The dew not fallen, the wind not chill:
Listening ever, but not catching
The customary cry,
"Come buy, come buy,"
With its iterated jingle
Of sugar-baited words:
Not for all her watching
Once discerning even one goblin
Racing, whisking, tumbling, hobbling;
Let alone the herds
That used to tramp along the glen,
In groups or single,
Of brisk fruit-merchant men.

Till Lizzie urged, "O Laura, come,
I hear the fruit-call, but I dare not look:
You should not loiter longer at this brook:
Come with me home.
The stars rise, the moon bends her arc,
Each glow-worm winks her spark,
Let us get home before the night grows dark;
For clouds may gather even
Though this is summer weather,
Put out the lights and drench us through;
Then if we lost our way what should we do?"

Laura turned cold as stone
To find her sister heard that cry alone,
That goblin cry,
"Come buy our fruits, come buy."
Must she then buy no more such dainty fruit?
Must she no more such succous pasture find,
Gone deaf and blind?
Her tree of life drooped from the root:
She said not one word in her heart's sore ache;
But peering thro' the dimness, naught discerning,
Trudged home, her pitcher dripping all the way;
So crept to bed, and lay
Silent 'til Lizzie slept;
Then sat up in a passionate yearning,
And gnashed her teeth for balked desire, and wept
As if her heart would break.

Day after day, night after night,
Laura kept watch in vain,
In sullen silence of exceeding pain.
She never caught again the goblin cry:
"Come buy, come buy,"
She never spied the goblin men
Hawking their fruits along the glen:
But when the noon waxed bright
Her hair grew thin and gray;
She dwindled, as the fair full moon doth turn
To swift decay, and burn
Her fire away.

One day remembering her kernel-stone
She set it by a wall that faced the south;
Dewed it with tears, hoped for a root,
Watched for a waxing shoot,
But there came none;
It never saw the sun,
It never felt the trickling moisture run:
While with sunk eyes and faded mouth
She dreamed of melons, as a traveller sees
False waves in desert drouth
With shade of leaf-crowned trees,
And burns the thirstier in the sandful breeze.

She no more swept the house,
Tended the fowls or cows,
Fetched honey, kneaded cakes of wheat,
Brought water from the brook:
But sat down listless in the chimney-nook
And would not eat.

Tender Lizzie could not bear
To watch her sister's cankerous care,
Yet not to share.
She night and morning
Caught the goblins' cry:
"Come buy our orchard fruits,
Come buy, come buy."
Beside the brook, along the glen
She heard the tramp of goblin men,
The voice and stir
Poor Laura could not hear;
Longed to buy fruit to comfort her,
But feared to pay too dear,

She thought of Jeanie in her grave,
Who should have been a bride;
But who for joys brides hope to have
Fell sick and died
In her gay prime,
In earliest winter-time,
With the first glazing rime,
With the first snow-fall of crisp winter-time.

Till Laura, dwindling,
Seemed knocking at Death's door:
Then Lizzie weighed no more
Better and worse,
But put a silver penny in her purse,
Kissed Laura, crossed the heath with clumps of furze
At twilight, halted by the brook,
And for the first time in her life
Began to listen and look.

Laughed every goblin
When they spied her peeping:
Came towards her hobbling,
Flying, running, leaping,
Puffing and blowing,
Chuckling, clapping, crowing,
Clucking and gobbling,
Mopping and mowing,
Full of airs and graces,
Pulling wry faces,
Demure grimaces,
Cat-like and rat-like,
Ratel and wombat-like,
Snail-paced in a hurry,
Parrot-voiced and whistler,
Helter-skelter, hurry-skurry,
Chattering like magpies,
Fluttering like pigeons,
Gliding like fishes, --
Hugged her and kissed her;
Squeezed and caressed her;
Stretched up their dishes,
Panniers and plates:
"Look at our apples
Russet and dun,
Bob at our cherries
Bite at our peaches,
Citrons and dates,
Grapes for the asking,
Pears red with basking
Out in the sun,
Plums on their twigs;
Pluck them and suck them,
Pomegranates, figs."

"Good folk," said Lizzie,
Mindful of Jeanie,
"Give me much and many"; --
Held out her apron,
Tossed them her penny.
"Nay, take a seat with us,
Honor and eat with us,"
They answered grinning;
"Our feast is but beginning.
Night yet is early,
Warm and dew-pearly,
Wakeful and starry:
Such fruits as these
No man can carry;
Half their bloom would fly,
Half their dew would dry,
Half their flavor would pass by.
Sit down and feast with us,
Be welcome guest with us,
Cheer you and rest with us."
"Thank you," said Lizzie; "but one waits
At home alone for me:
So, without further parleying,
If you will not sell me any
Of your fruits though much and many,
Give me back my silver penny
I tossed you for a fee."
They began to scratch their pates,
No longer wagging, purring,
But visibly demurring,
Grunting and snarling.
One called her proud,
Cross-grained, uncivil;
Their tones waxed loud,
Their looks were evil.
Lashing their tails
They trod and hustled her,
Elbowed and jostled her,
Clawed with their nails,
Barking, mewing, hissing, mocking,
Tore her gown and soiled her stocking,
Twitched her hair out by the roots,
Stamped upon her tender feet,
Held her hands and squeezed their fruits
Against her mouth to make her eat.

White and golden Lizzie stood,
Like a lily in a flood,
Like a rock of blue-veined stone
Lashed by tides obstreperously, --
Like a beacon left alone
In a hoary roaring sea,
Sending up a golden fire, --
Like a fruit-crowned orange-tree
White with blossoms honey-sweet
Sore beset by wasp and bee, --
Like a royal virgin town
Topped with gilded dome and spire
Close beleaguered by a fleet
Mad to tear her standard down.

One may lead a horse to water,
Twenty cannot make him drink.
Though the goblins cuffed and caught her,
Coaxed and fought her,
Bullied and besought her,
Scratched her, pinched her black as ink,
Kicked and knocked her,
Mauled and mocked her,
Lizzie uttered not a word;
Would not open lip from lip
Lest they should cram a mouthful in;
But laughed in heart to feel the drip
Of juice that syruped all her face,
And lodged in dimples of her chin,
And streaked her neck which quaked like curd.
At last the evil people,
Worn out by her resistance,
Flung back her penny, kicked their fruit
Along whichever road they took,
Not leaving root or stone or shoot.
Some writhed into the ground,
Some dived into the brook
With ring and ripple.
Some scudded on the gale without a sound,
Some vanished in the distance.

In a smart, ache, tingle,
Lizzie went her way;
Knew not was it night or day;
Sprang up the bank, tore through the furze,
Threaded copse and dingle,
And heard her penny jingle
Bouncing in her purse, --
Its bounce was music to her ear.
She ran and ran
As if she feared some goblin man
Dogged her with gibe or curse
Or something worse:
But not one goblin skurried after,
Nor was she pricked by fear;
The kind heart made her windy-paced
That urged her home quite out of breath with haste
And inward laughter.

She cried "Laura," up the garden,
"Did you miss me ?
Come and kiss me.
Never mind my bruises,
Hug me, kiss me, suck my juices
Squeezed from goblin fruits for you,
Goblin pulp and goblin dew.
Eat me, drink me, love me;
Laura, make much of me:
For your sake I have braved the glen
And had to do with goblin merchant men."

Laura started from her chair,
Flung her arms up in the air,
Clutched her hair:
"Lizzie, Lizzie, have you tasted
For my sake the fruit forbidden?
Must your light like mine be hidden,
Your young life like mine be wasted,
Undone in mine undoing,
And ruined in my ruin;
Thirsty, cankered, goblin-ridden?"
She clung about her sister,
Kissed and kissed and kissed her:
Tears once again
Refreshed her shrunken eyes,
Dropping like rain
After long sultry drouth;
Shaking with aguish fear, and pain,
She kissed and kissed her with a hungry mouth.

Her lips began to scorch,
That juice was wormwood to her tongue,
She loathed the feast:
Writhing as one possessed she leaped and sung,
Rent all her robe, and wrung
Her hands in lamentable haste,
And beat her breast.
Her locks streamed like the torch
Borne by a racer at full speed,
Or like the mane of horses in their flight,
Or like an eagle when she stems the light
Straight toward the sun,
Or like a caged thing freed,
Or like a flying flag when armies run.

Swift fire spread through her veins, knocked at her heart,
Met the fire smouldering there
And overbore its lesser flame,
She gorged on bitterness without a name:
Ah! fool, to choose such part
Of soul-consuming care!
Sense failed in the mortal strife:
Like the watch-tower of a town
Which an earthquake shatters down,
Like a lightning-stricken mast,
Like a wind-uprooted tree
Spun about,
Like a foam-topped water-spout
Cast down headlong in the sea,
She fell at last;
Pleasure past and anguish past,
Is it death or is it life ?

Life out of death.
That night long Lizzie watched by her,
Counted her pulse's flagging stir,
Felt for her breath,
Held water to her lips, and cooled her face
With tears and fanning leaves:
But when the first birds chirped about their eaves,
And early reapers plodded to the place
Of golden sheaves,
And dew-wet grass
Bowed in the morning winds so brisk to pass,
And new buds with new day
Opened of cup-like lilies on the stream,
Laura awoke as from a dream,
Laughed in the innocent old way,
Hugged Lizzie but not twice or thrice;
Her gleaming locks showed not one thread of gray,
Her breath was sweet as May,
And light danced in her eyes.

Days, weeks, months,years
Afterwards, when both were wives
With children of their own;
Their mother-hearts beset with fears,
Their lives bound up in tender lives;
Laura would call the little ones
And tell them of her early prime,
Those pleasant days long gone
Of not-returning time:
Would talk about the haunted glen,
The wicked, quaint fruit-merchant men,
Their fruits like honey to the throat,
But poison in the blood;
(Men sell not such in any town;)
Would tell them how her sister stood
In deadly peril to do her good,
And win the fiery antidote:
Then joining hands to little hands
Would bid them cling together,
"For there is no friend like a sister,
In calm or stormy weather,
To cheer one on the tedious way,
To fetch one if one goes astray,
To lift one if one totters down,
To strengthen whilst one stands."
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:12 am
Cav... please tell us why you think those two poems are alike. I don't see many similarities, but I'm ready to have you point 'em out. I fear that the part about Laura licking the fruit off Lizzie may be shocking to Oristar.

Since I first read Goblin Market, I have loved that long and mellifluous listing of the lucious fruits that could be had. It would be a perfect thing to memorize, wouldn't it?

"Come buy our orchard fruits,
Come buy, come buy:
Apples and quinces,
Lemons and oranges,
Plump unpecked cherries-
Melons and raspberries,
Bloom-down-cheeked peaches,
Swart-headed mulberries,
Wild free-born cranberries,
Crab-apples, dewberries,
Pine-apples, blackberries,
Apricots, strawberries--
All ripe together
In summer weather--
Morns that pass by,
Fair eves that fly;
Come buy, come buy;
Our grapes fresh from the vine,
Pomegranates full and fine,
Dates and sharp bullaces,
Rare pears and greengages,
Damsons and bilberries,
Taste them and try:
Currants and gooseberries,
Bright-fire-like barberries,
Figs to fill your mouth,
Citrons from the South,
Sweet to tongue and sound to eye,
Come buy, come buy."


Wow! If only my little farmer's market was half so fabulous!
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:33 am
I am simply going on imagery and metaphor Piffka.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:34 am
The apples and pears?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:37 am
That and subtext, I suppose.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 10:12 am
Hmmm. Well, there's a lot of subtext in Goblins. To me, it is hard to compare poems of such different lengths. Rossetti was a poet's poet, writing for her brother & his friends and needing to show a lot of classical images to prove herself, I always thought. There is so much in that poem that is worth a lot of study and I like it very much.

I think Millay, whose Renascence poem earned her a scholarship to the excellent women's college, Vassar (1917), was likely to have read and been influenced by Rossetti... and to agree with her that women had been held back by cultural influences. (I imagine Oristar would recognize some similar patterns in the Chinese culture -- bound feet comes first to mind.) As she was from the next generation or so, Millay seems to have chosen to NOT let that happen to herself.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 11:16 am
Dear Piffka,

I've never been to the US for some reasons, though I eager to.

I think what you said about Moses that "he was illumined from within" is more likely. In my point of view, that was a best show of wisdom within and handsomeness without. I am sure that you have had such an exprience: when your wisdom shone within, your eyes would lighten up and your face would also be full of joy without, just like a very beautiful woman lightened up people's eyes around her. Moses met with God, a perfect, wisest and most awesome being, so his potential had been activated. He got the deepest wisdom in the world in his day from God. At that moment, his energy erupted under the lead of God and, anyone felt that his face shone like the sun. But remember, that is what people felt, not physically as bright as the sun.

I think THE LITTLE HILL refers to the Mount of Olives.
http://www.reformation.org/jerusalem7.jpg
Mount of Olives overlooking Jerusalem where Christ rose from the dead.

OH, here the air is sweet and still,
And soft's the grass to lie on;
And far away's the little hill
They took for Christ to die on.

===>>> The pic above has helped me a lot to decipher the verse.

And there's a hill across the brook,
And down the brook's another;
But, oh, the little hill they took,--
I think I am its mother!

===>>> Here Jesus' agony and betrayal happened, and Mary's heart was broken. As a mother, you would like to take a heavy load on your shoulder for your son, like Mary, the Jesus' mother. To be the mother of the hill, keeps vigil and see your son's revival.

The moon that saw Gethsemane,
I watch it rise and set:
It has so many things to see,
They help it to forget.

===>>> The vigil is continuing...

But little hills that sit at home
So many hundred years,
Remember Greece, remember Rome,
Remember Mary's tears.

===>>> But those heavy memories like little hills in my mind have gone through several hundred years of history: great ancient Greece civilization staged, and Roman Empire showed off, while Mary and Jesus went their way.

And far away in Palestine,
Sadder than any other,
Grieves still the hill that I call mine,--
I think I am its mother!

===>>> Jerusalem aches, and the hill grieves, as a mother, I'd wait until the day of their renewal.

Piffka, it is indeed a challenge for me because it involves many historical knowledges. I'd wait for your better explanation.
PS. Thanks cavfancier, I will read the long poem later.

Best
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 06:57 pm
Dear Oristar,
I hope that someday you will visit the United States... there are lots of things to do and see.

I'm glad that the "light from within" is your choice, too. There are some people who do seem to glow, whether because they are beautiful or good or happy.

Your analysis of The Little Hill seems to fit the poem well. I like how you say "the vigil continues." It seems like Millay is looking at one hill, the one where the air is sweet and grass is all around, yet she is envisioning another one far away, and proclaiming her alliance with Christianity.

The line "I think I am its mother" has always made me pause... she is saying that she is "the hill's" mother and that is odd, to me. The hill is part of Mother Earth, right? So, in this poem, I've always thought Millay was personifying Mother Earth and seeing all the hills as her children. Perhaps she is partly connecting Mother Earth to Mary, Queen of Heaven. Her point about the moon is also a symbol of the ancient earth mother. There are a lot of historical references that we may not be getting -- the Christian one, of course, but also she mentions Rome, which is said to have been built on seven hills. I don't understand the reference to Greece at all. (I guess I should study that.)

I've noticed Millay frequently writes about hills. Here's one of my favorite images of hers, a simply appreciation of the afternoon sun.

AFTERNOON ON A HILL
I will be the gladdest thing
Under the sun!
I will touch a hundred flowers
And not pick one.

I will look at cliffs and clouds
With quiet eyes,
Watch the wind bow down the grass,
And the grass rise.

And when lights begin to show
Up from the town,
I will mark which must be mine,
And then start down!


Best,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 07:00 pm
Piffka !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 10:04 pm
Dear Piffka,

Regarding the Greece in the poem of Millay.
An organic fusion of Christianity and Greece philosophy emerged in St.Augustine's day after the two having collided with about two centuriess. Augustine's loyalty of Christ and his succession and reconstruction of Greece philosophy -- the highest representation of Greece wisdom -- greatly helped the finish of fusion.
Saint Augustine, a.d. 354-430. Augustine received a Christian education several hundred years after Christ's birth. I think that is why Millay had that lines -- So many hundred years, Remember Greece...
Information about St.Augustine:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm

I'll read AFTERNOON ON A HILL and reread your last later.

Best
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 11:14 pm
Gautam!!!!!
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 11:18 pm
Dear Oristar,
I will check that NewAdvent link, thanks. Never thought of this fusion between Greece & Christianity, though obviously at some point the Greek Orthodox Church came into being.

I did remember that Greece's Parthenon was built on a hill. Very Happy Hope you like the Afternoon on a Hill.

Best to you,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2004 12:15 pm
Dear Piffka,

What the poem AFTERNOON ON A HILL described is much like Christ standing in flowers, watching anyting in the world with his graceful eyes. In Arianism's view, Christ was the highest of created beings, while Millay was the gladdest of created ones, at least at that moment when she watched flowers, grass, cliffs and clouds under the sun with her quiet eyes.

Cheers Millay!

Best
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2004 12:57 pm
Dear Oristar,
It is a much better thought to envision Christ standing in flowers in a hill than being crucified, I think.. I believe you are right that there are many Christian images that Millay used... many more than I expected. The Arianism belief could be what she herself thought, I don't know. Maybe it would be explained better in her biography. She isn't thought of primarily as a Christian poet, unlike say, Gerard Manley Hopkins, who wrote this beautiful poem and many others, all religious (and quite beautiful):

Pied Beauty

Glory be to God for dappled things,
For skies of couple-color as a brinded cow,
For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim;
Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls, finches' wings;
Landscape plotted and pieced, fold, fallow and plough,
And all trades, their gear and tackle and trim.
All things counter, original, spare, strange,
Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?)
With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim.
He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change;
Praise him.



Here, for example, is a poem that Millay wrote about the Greek epic poem, The Odyssey. The woman, Penelope, was the long-suffering wife to Ulysses. Here's some background for some of the images before you read the poem.

Quote:
Penelope waited two decades for her husband Odysseus to return to Ithaca from the Trojan War, not knowing whether he was dead or alive. In this long and painful wait her sole relief was to weep and sigh all day long, and to lie in what she called her 'bed of sorrows' which she watered with tears until she fell asleep. In the meantime, she was compelled to promise the scoundrels that called themselves her SUITORS and who were at the same time the pick of the Ithacan nobility, that she would wed one of them when the shroud of Laertes was finished. She wove it for three years, weaving it by day and undoing it by night. But her trick was discovered and her life became even more difficult.



AN ANCIENT GESTURE
I thought, as I wiped my eyes on the corner of my apron:
Penelope did this too.
And more than once: you can't keep weaving all day
And undoing it all through the night;
Your arms get tired, and the back of your neck gets tight;
And along towards morning, when you think it will never be light,
And your husband has been gone, and you don't know where, for years.
Suddenly you burst into tears;
There is simply nothing else to do.

And I thought, as I wiped my eyes on the corner of my apron:
This is an ancient gesture, authentic, antique,
In the very best tradition, classic, Greek;
Ulysses did this too.
But only as a gesture,--a gesture which implied
To the assembled throng that he was much too moved to speak.
He learned it from Penelope...
Penelope, who really cried.

Edna St. Vincent Millay



Best,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
 

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