Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

Dear Piffka,

That is a dismal song for the loyal classical love. In the poem Millay has showed us that true love could have no clock. But can such a misery be avoided today?
If Penelope lived today, she doesn't need to wait so long in misery, because modern communications can help her a lot. For example, GPS might help she to position where her husband is -- I didn't mean to destroy the poetic atmosphere, but I inclined to that the solving of the misery is much better than anything else...
What an old poem from Gerard Manley Hopkins! So old that I have to read it again later before discussing it.

Best
Oristar

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LOL, Oristar... That's funny!
GPS positioning for Ulysses and a cell phone for Penelope! <grin>

You have missed that Millay was sad however. Don't you feel badly for her? The poem starts out with her crying and and her wiping her eyes on her apron. It is such a direct and homespun action -- you can't do that from far away. Crying and wiping your eyes is an immediate state and implies an intimate raw emotion. What brings a person to tears? The poem comes from Millay's realization that her feelings of lost or disloyal love are as human and natural a condition as the stories that had been told by the early Greeks and passed down through the centuries.

So I don't think Millay would think a GPS or telephone would solve her very real problem of sadness. It might have been very VERY good for Ulysses & Co. That's another long story though and Ulysses had some adventures that I imagine would have made Penelope more angry than sad if she had known. Ulysses could thank his lucky stars he didn't have to admit what he'd been doing over the phone or that his crew might fax incriminating photos back to Ithaca.

I also believe Millay is correct in her view that a woman is more likely to have these real feelings of sadness than a man might. She says Penelope's tears were real, but Ulysses cried for the crowd. I think that says something about her own strong human feelings. It is when we cry alone that our feelings become more known to us, crying for an audience is giving a show. I think it is for that reason that most people do not want others to see them when they are really crying.

Quote:

This is an ancient gesture, authentic, antique,
In the very best tradition, classic, Greek;

I particularly love those lines... the words "authentic" and "antique" are very unique ways of describing this gesture of crying and wiping away your tears. The word "gesture" itself implies the stylized Greek theater and also imply that the gesture does not necessarily have the feeling to back it up, but she says that this gesture IS authentic... real.

Hope by now that you are enjoying Pied Beauty.

Your friend,
Piffka

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Piffka: You have missed that Millay was sad however. Don't you feel badly for her?

Oristar: I said that is "a dismal song". What meaning do you think the word "dismal" has? Of course I've known Millay was sad before posting the reply, because "dismal" refers to "sad".

Piffka: (Piffka's Tear Theory)

Oristar: That's it.

I don't know if there were many versions about the Odysseus and Penelope's story, the classical Greek mythology. The version I've read described both of them were absolutely loyal to their true love in the cruel 20 years. That is why I said "In the poem Millay has showed us that true love could have no clock."

The loyalty for love between them showed us that true love has no clock.
But it is very cruel since Penelope had to wait for 20 years.
The major sorrow during the 20-year-long wait that Penelope suffered is that she didn't know whether her husband was alive or not. Why did not those tiresome even shameless suitors want to leave her palace but staying there to consume? The major reason is that they deemed Odysseus had died! So they felt they were very proper to woo Penelope, who, unable to prove her husband was still alive, had to leave no stone unturned to postpone the day of her deuterogamy. One of the countermeasures that she made against the offenses of wooing is her promise of weaving a shroud for her father before remarrying. Every night she cried her heart out for the unknown situation of her husband. But if there were good communication conditions like nowadays global (cell) phone network, she would very soon know that her husband was alive and all annoying suitors would have to retreat in no time.

Piffka: She says Penelope's tears were real, but Ulysses cried for the crowd.

Oristar: I see. I have known now that the version you read about Penelope is different to mine. But that story is just a mythology and can be made up as you wish, after all.

But the result is, unfortunately, Piffka said no dear to Oristar.

I am amused.

Best
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,

I apologize if I have offended you -- while the word "dismal" means gloomy, it has the connotation of being inept or feeble. When you described the poem as dismal, I thought you meant that it was not a good poem. I am still very amused that all of the Odyssey could have been solved with good modern communications. Surely you saw the humor in that? I thought you were trying to make me laugh. I hope that reading these poems is something you enjoy and I am not annoying you with my comments.

It is true that I know very little about Ulysses and only studied the Odyssey briefly long ago... perhaps he really did mean his tears when every day that he was with Calypso he wept for his wife (This, I think, may be what annoyed Millay -- after all -- it is a strange way to be loyal to Penelope, living with your mistress for seven years, no matter how wet your tears.) Perhaps his tears were real, too, when the singer Demodocus told the story of the Trojan War, but that seemed more of a way for Ulysses to show the crowd his identity, and therefore not real tears. That is, I suppose, the reference she writes about in the poem.

Millay seemed to doubt him, so I did too. I think she doubts him again when she says Ulysses learned from Penelope "who cried real tears" even though he could not have been there to witness her weeping. I will give Ulysses the benefit of the doubt, however, since you have championed him. He is considered heroic... in fact, my grandfather was named for him so I should not be so disrespectful. (John Ulysses Clark was his name.)

Did you know that Edna St.V. Millay wrote a poem about her trip to China? She was entranced by the music.

With loads of respect for your very fine command of the English language and trying hard to not offend you in any way,

All the Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

I feel pain that my big English-Chinese dictionary misled me once again, in which the dictionary explained "a dismal song" as "a sad, miserable song". It is worthy to appreciate the poems by Millay, the winner of a Pulitzer Prize for her volume The Harp Weaver and Other Poems. I could not tell you whether I've enjoyed greatly from reading Millay's poems for the time being, because my sense for English poems is not as percipient as when I read classic Chinese poems. A good poem is very hardwon that also needs a reader to accurately apprecite it, so I could not jump to a conclusion before I've truly mastered English language. But what I am sure now is that I enjoyed learning Millay's poems from you and enjoyed discussing them with you.

I've just read the first paragraph of your reply. Here is the midnight in China, and I have not had my dinner yet.

See you later.

Best
Oristar

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Piffka wrote:

-- while the word "dismal" means gloomy, it has the connotation of being inept or feeble. When you described the poem as dismal, I thought you meant that it was not a good poem.

I'd never heard of that connotation before, piffka. Here, we talk about dismal weather - simply meaning gloomy. Or someone's dismal outlook on things - again - gloomy.

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That's funny, Beth. Are you sure? I wondered why Oristar's words had affected me that way and whether I was wrong, so I checked my Oxford Colour Dictionary and used its words to be as correct as possible for the sake of Oristar's study of English. The entries are limited (it is just a small softbound book) but for dismal it is, "adjective gloomy, miserable and dreary; colloquial feeble and inept."

I found an online version with a similar set of definitions for dismal here.

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If we followed the examples " a dismal book; a dismal performance on the cello", "dismal" should mean "Characterized by ineptitude, dullness, or a lack of merit". And then, "a dismal song" meant "an inept song" or "a song with lack of merit". But I googled "a dismal song" (please include quotation marks when googling), and "a dismal song" seems meaning a different thing:

(From google)
(1) Marcia said one of the hardest things for a singer to do is to stand still
whilst performing, but Hayley had managed to do this and delivered the song really
well. Dicko felt Hayley had performed a dismal song really well.

(If "a dismal song" meant "a song with lack of merit", the Dicko could not say "Hayley had performed a dismal song really well" -- that like saying "Hayley had performed a CRAPPY song really well" (This sounds very improper). It seems the writer meant "a dismal song" is "a sad song")

(2) So I heard mentioned, and I wondered what song, and thought what a dismal song it must have been to sing!

(If it were 'an inept song", "I" would not like to "sing"! But if "a dismal song" meant "a sad song", "I"'d like to do it!")

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Dear Piffka,

I especially appreciated that Millay said "A treasure never to be bartered by the hungry days". That is a tug at the heartstrings.If possible, I would like to know some more depiction about the Millay's trip to China.

You said, "With loads of respect for your very fine command of the English language and trying hard to not offend you in any way".

Ah Piffka, I've never thought that you've offended me. You're indeed a very good-natured and kindhearted American lady in my mind! As for the controversial word "dismal", there is no evidence that shows you've offened me. You just expressed your opinion on the understanding of the word "dismal". I think it is so natural that everyone could express her/his own idea for something, regardless of whether one's understanding is correct or not, only if the one is sincere, then anything should be okay. Or else, what is the best way for free speech? Or else, I would fear that I've offened you for that I wanted to express my own opinion.

Best
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
I agree that if one is sincere, then everything should be OK. Thank you for your compliments, I see that you also have a good, kind heart and are a very intelligent person. It is a pleasure to have our conversations.

I think you have picked the most important phrase from Millay's poem. It does bring tears to the eyes to imagine how difficult it would be, in the time of a famine, to keep anything beautiful alive. Whether it is a simple song or a very precious loved one, the sheer determination to do so shows an awesome and bittersweet effort. It is a wonderful human characteristic to have a desire to make life more beautiful... one, anyway, that I want to emulate. I see it as very life-affirming.

I believe that Edna St. Vincent Millay wrote about her trip to China but just as I found the reference online, my computer... which is soon to be replaced... broke off the connection (and then I had to turn it off, reboot and get myself back to this point). I will try to find it again, but I wanted to post this before I searched again.

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

I was looking for the answer why Millay could wrote out the moving line -- "A treasure never to be bartered by the hungry days". The following might be the answer:

She lived in a nine-foot-wide attic and wrote anything she could find an editor willing to accept. She and the other writers of Greenwich Village were, according to Millay herself, "very, very poor and very, very merry." She joined the Provincetown Players in their early days, and befriended writers such as Witter Bynner, Edmund Wilson, Susan Glaspell, and Floyd Dell, who asked for Millay's hand in marriage. Millay, who was openly bisexual, refused, despite Dell's attempts to persuade her otherwise. That same year Millay published A Few Figs from Thistles (1920), a volume of poetry which drew much attention for its controversial descriptions of female sexuality and feminism. In 1923 her fourth volume of poems, The Harp Weaver, was awarded the Pulitzer Prize. In addition to publishing three plays in verse, Millay also wrote the libretto of one of the few American grand operas, The King's Henchman (1927).

http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?45442B7C000C070308

The "very, very poor and very, very merry" is also a touching poem line! Her personal experience once living in poverty bestowed her the special inspiration.

Best
Oristar

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Dear Piffka,

Where are you now? Have you returned home?

III

====>>> It looks a secret code, Piffka, you have to tell me what it is -- I hope it is not WW III, but the body of the poem shows a sign of such possibility.

No further from me than my hand
Is China that I loved so well;

====>>> "Our planet is a Global Village", China is a neighbor of the US, the Pacific Ocean is a big pond, right? Has Millay loved her neighbor so well?

Love does not help to understand
The logic of the bursting shell.

====>>> Love is love, while bomb is bomb. (let's read along.)

Perfect in dream above me yet
Shines the white cone of Fuji-San;
I wake in fear, and weep, and sweat . . .
Weep for Yoshida, Japan.

====>>> Dream is sweet, while reality is bitter. Yoshida? I think the "Boy" has gone to Nagasaki and Hiroshima, not Yoshida. However, Millay wakes up in fear, weep and sweat, and praying God that no more war on the planet.

Logic alone, all love laid by,
Must calm this crazed and plunging star:
Sorrowful news for such as I,
Who hoped -- with men just as they are,
Sinful and loving -- to secure
A human peace that might endure.

====>>> The lines how we can secure a great peace in human society. What does the "star" refer to? The star is so crazed and plunging... The US? China? Japan?

Best
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
Hello! Hello! I hope you are well. I returned home very early in the morning on Wednesday, but I've been feeling like I'm three time zones away.

As you say, China is our neighbor... do you know this quote? "Seas but join the regions they divide." All you need is a reasonably good boat. That quote, btw, comes from Alexander Pope and can be found in context here.

It is very confusing to answer your questions since the poem I had posted is no longer there. I will find it again & repost it, however, I can say that the III is a reference to the third poem in that series, NOT World War III. (Goodness! I hope you were joking. There has been too much talk of war.) The poem can be found in Millay's 1939 book, Huntsman, What Quarry?, and is posted in this collection out of the University of Michigan. I'm posting all three parts for you since it does seem confusing.

Quote:

Three Sonnets in Tetrameter
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I
See how these masses mill and swarm
And troop and muster and assail:
God! --- We could keep this planet warm
By friction, if the sun should fail.
Mercury, Saturn, Venus, Mars:
If no prow cuts your arid seas,
Then in your weightless air no wars
Explode with such catastrophes
As rock our planet all but loose
From its frayed mooring to the sun.
Law will not sanction such abuse
Forever; when the mischief's done,
Planets, rejoice, on which at night
Rains but the twelve-ton meteorite.
II
His stalk the dark delphinium
Unthorned into the tending hand
Releases . . . yet that hour will come . . .
And must, in such a spiny land.
The sikly, powdery mignonette
Before these gathering dews are gone
May pierce me --- does the rose regret
The day she did her armour on?
In that the foul supplants the fair,
The coarse defeats the twice-refined,
Is food for thought, but not despair:
All will be easier when the mind
To meet the brutal age has grown
An iron cortex of its own.
III
No further from me than my hand
Is China that I loved so well;
Love does not help to understand
The logic of the bursting shell.
Perfect in dream above me yet
Shines the white cone of Fuji-San;
I wake in fear, and weep and sweat. . .
Weep for Yoshida, for Japan.
Logic alone, all love laid by,
Must calm this crazed and plunging star:
Sorrowful news for such as I,
Who hoped --- with men just as they are,
Sinful and loving --- to secure
A human peace that might endure.

So, one of the things I find confusing in this poem is that she jumps from speaking about China to images from Japan. I have to wonder if she was somewhat confused and want very much to read her biography and see where she went on her trip "to the Orient."

I think when she says "China that I loved so well," she means that she very much enjoyed her travels there and felt a sympathy for the country and the people.

As for love and "the bursting bomb," I think she is probably referring to the feelings of a pacifist who prefers to love and not fight. Make Love, not War -- perhaps you've heard that sentiment? In fact, Millay became controversial when she published Make Bright the Arrows (a later work) because she was "sort of" advocating war (against Hitler) and it was unseemly for a woman poet.

I wondered about "the star" myself. She writes earlier quite knowledgeably about a meteorite being a better thing to fall from the sky than a bomb, so she has some astronomical knowledge. Yet it seems she means the earth itself which is, of course, a planet, not a star. Personally, I think Millay is better at writing about nature & love than she is at writing about this subject.

But I am disappointed, Oristar. I was hoping YOU would be able to explain this poem to me! Wink

It's nice to be back!
Best wishes,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

I'm very pleased that you have been back okay!

http://www.eastflower.net/images/732.jpg

I' ll read your long reply later.

Best
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
Ooooh... Beautiful! I love lilies. Thank you! Looking forward to your next post.

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

I'm very sorry to make you disappointed for failing to explain the "III". But I also should be thick-skinned, because the mysterious dream that Millay made in the poem might be a way out to help us from the disappointment.

" China -- love -- bursting shell -- Fujisan --waking in fear -- weep for Japan" ... You found confusing here. Yes, We saw Millay's soul was bouncing on these lines.So unusual and mysterious.

On July 7,1937, Japanese troops invaded China, and then a full-scale anti-Japanese War erupted in China.I think Millay loved China, as well as Japan, so she wrote: Is China that I loved so well;
Love does not help to understand The logic of the bursting shell. Because she had sung that melody -- Make Love, not War. The two beloved ones clashed so fiercely that was beyond her understanding.So she woke in fear, and wept and sweated. She hated Japan's invading China, she swept for Japan, too. At that time, the logic of war stood alone while all love were laid by. And then Millay said "Must calm this crazed and plunging star". I think the star referred to Japan. Because Japanese military uniform has five-pointed stars on it. Unfortunately, the crazed and plunging star also attacked Pearl Harbor on Sunday, December 7, 1941. I think Millay had then suffered greatly, for that "human peace" , especially of the US, was torn by the star once again.

So Japan deserved the Little Boy to visit it.

The poem was found in Millay's 1939 book, so I think this is one of the possible explanations for the poem.

You said you "want very much to read her biography ". That's it. I'd wait for your verifying the explanation above.

Here is the mid-night in China.
See you tomorrow.

Best,
Oristar

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Dear Oristar,
Thanks for solving the mystery. I'm sure you are right. I knew there was a China-Japan conflict, but there have been so many and I do not have a good knowledge of history. It seems so full of stupid conflict and I like to think we should be brave enough to wage peace, not war.

Your idea that the star referred to Japan and their military uniform seems reasonable, but I differ with you about who suffered more. I remember hearing (before I had to shut off listening) that there were horrible attrocities in China, much worse than what happened in Pearl Harbor. The "Little Boy" that you mention -- that's the nickname for one of the atomic bombs, right? <shaking head> It's no wonder I don't like to dwell on war. Is it possible to be a free & happy person when so many have died so horribly?

Millay wrote a beautifully sympathetic poem about the people who die in war. I think of it often because she seemed to get into the heads of the dying and imagine what last bits of comfort that could have. I've bolded the lines I most love.

Quote:

Invocation to the Muses
Read by the poet at The Public Ceremonial of The National Institute of Arts and Letters at Carnegie Hall, New York, January 18th, 1941.

Great Muse, that from this hall absent for long
Hast never been,
Great Muse of Song,
Colossal Muse of mighty Melody,
Vocal Calliope,
With thine august and contrapuntal brow
And thy vast throat builded for Harmony,
For the strict monumental pure design,
And the melodic line:
Be thou tonight with all beneath these rafters--be with me.
If I address thee in archaic style--
Words obsolete, words obsolescent,
It is that for a little while
The heart must, oh indeed must from this angry and out-rageous present
Itself withdraw
Into some past in which most crooked Evil,
Although quite certainly conceived and born, was not as yet the Law.

Archaic, or obsolescent at the least,
Be thy grave speaking and the careful words of thy clear song,
For the time wrongs us, and the words most common to our speech today
Salute and welcome to the feast
Conspicuous Evil-- or against him all day long
Cry out, telling of ugly deeds and most uncommon wrong.

Be thou tonight with all beneath these rafters--be with me
But oh, be more with those who are not free.
Who, herded into prison camps all shame must suffer and all outrage see.
Where music is not played nor sung,
Though the great voice be there, no sound from the dry throat across the thickened tongue
Comes forth; nor has he heart for it.
Beauty in all things--no, we cannot hope for that; but some place set apart for it.
Here it may dwell;
And with your aid, Melpomene
And all thy sister-muses (for ye are, I think, daughters of Memory)
Within the tortured mind as well.

Reaped are those fields with dragon's-teeth so lately sown;
Many the heaped men dying there - so close, hip touches thigh; yet each man dies alone.

Music, what overtone
For the soft ultimate sigh or the unheeded groan
Hast thou--to make death decent, where men slip
Down blood to death, no service of grieved heart or ritual lip
Transferring what was recently a man and still is warm--
Transferring his obedient limbs into the shallow grave where not again a friend shall greet him,
Nor hatred do him harm . . .
Nor true love run to meet him?

In the last hours of him who lies untended
On a cold field at night, and sees the hard bright stars
Above his upturned face, and says aloud "How strange . . . my life is ended."--
If in the past he loved great music much, and knew it well,
Let not his lapsing mind be teased by well-beloved but ill- remembered bars --
Let the full symphony across the blood-soaked field
By him be heard, most pure in every part,
The lonely horror of whose painful death is thus repealed,
Who dies with quiet tears upon his upturned face, making to glow with softness the hard stars.

And bring to those who knew great poetry well
Page after page that they have loved but have not learned by heart!
We who in comfort to well-lighted shelves
Can turn for all the poets ever wrote,
Beseech you: Bear to those
Who love high art no less than we ourselves,
Those who lie wounded, those who in prison cast
Strive to recall, to ease them, some great ode, and every stanza save the last.

Recall--oh, in the dark, restore them
The unremembered lines; make bright the page before them!
Page after page present to these,
In prison concentrated, watched by barbs of bayonet and wire,
Give ye to them their hearts' intense desire--
The words of Shelley, Virgil, Sophocles.

And thou, O lovely and not sad,
Euterpe, be thou in this hall tonight!
Bid us remember all we ever had
Of sweet and gay delight--
We who are free,
But cannot quite be glad,
Thinking of huge, abrupt disaster brought
Upon so many of our kind
Who treasure as do we the vivid look on the unfrightened face,
The careless happy stride from place to place,
And the unbounded regions of untrammelled thought
Open as interstellar space
To the exploring and excited mind.

O Muses, O immortal Nine!--
Or do ye languish? Can ye die?
Must all go under?--
How shall we heal without your help a world
By these wild horses torn asunder?
How shall we build anew? -- How start again?
How cure, how even moderate this pain
Without you, and you strong?
And if ye sleep, then waken!
And if ye sicken and do plan to die,
Do not that now!

Hear us, in what sharp need we cry!
For we have help nowhere
If not in you!
Pity can much, and so a mighty mind, but cannot all things do!--
By you forsaken,
We shall be scattered, we shall be overtaken!
Oh, come! Renew in us the ancient wonder,
The grace of life, its courage, and its joy!
Weave us those garlands nothing can destroy!
Come! with your radiant eyes! -- with your throats of thunder!

Her idea that those who loved poetry or music ought to remember them perfectly in their last mortal minutes has been a source of wonder and inspiration to me. There is a rich imagery of classical mythology in this poem, too, more than I am aware of, I'm sure. (The Muses themselves are such an awesome concept.)

I am going away on yet another trip, this time to the beautiful Oregon Coast... I expect to be leaving tomorrow, but I'm hoping to buy a laptop computer. If I do, I may be able to get online, otherwise I'll be back in about a week.

Best,
Piffka

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Dear Piffka,

Thanks for recommending the new beautiful poem and for appreciating my analysis. Yes, we need a great courage to wage peace. Let's brace ourselves for the challenge!

I think the point you differed with me is actually as the same as mine. The point refferred to Nanking Massacre happened in six weeks since December 13th, 1937, during which an estimated 300,000 Chinese soldiers and civilians were killed, and 20,000 women were raped.

The horrible atrocity is no doubt much worse than Pearl Harbor attack. I've included the atrocity into the war crime committed by Japanese troops during their invading China. We stood in the same line, dear Piffka. Here, I'd thank great American people who helped China to defeat Japan on behalf of the innocent people killled by Japanese troops in the massacre, also on behalf of all honest Chinese people now alive, if they allowed me. The American Little Boy taught the stubburn Japanese militarists a lession that war is meaningless.

Now, let's read Millay's poem loudly:

Oh, come! Renew in us the ancient wonder,
The grace of life, its courage, and its joy!
Weave us those garlands nothing can destroy!

If you leave tomorrow, I'd say here good-bye to you and wish you have a good trip.
I'll see you a week later.

Best,
Oristar

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I read in my magazine of a recently-published book, in Britain, which gives groups of rhyming words.
If anyone is interested (and I know this is a complete nonsequitur to the posts here) I'll look the details up and post it.

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Hi McTag,

I'm interested in those newest published poems. Please post one or two of them here. Very Happy

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Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

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