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Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

 
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Feb, 2005 01:03 pm
Dear Oristar,

I wonder how much of that I understood* but the many expressions of 福 make me think you are having a wonderful time. Very Happy I am glad for you!

新年福春万 (Okay... nearly incomprehensible, but I'm trying.)

Last night I saw the beautiful 月亮春 and hoped that you were still celebrating!

新年好

Best,
Piffka

*This was my translation -- don't laugh!!! Wink:
The ocean itself seems full of the light of spring.
The beauty of spring and the celebrations of spring abound for everyone.
The mountain peaks with happiness of the earth. Sky-high happiness blessing are received in the recent new year.

(Sounds great!)
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 03:18 am
Dear Piffka,

It is nice that you kept trying. I edited your "新年福春万" as below:

新年纳福春光无限

But "月亮春" is basically pointless. Hmm, I might try to edit it as:

月圆花好春风得意

A Chinese couplet is a wordplay, which shows certain characteristics of Chinese language that reflect some intrinsic nature of the language. Well, you can translate the Chinese couplet into English, but it is no more called a couplet. I'm glad you've got some meaning of the couplet.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2005 12:56 pm
Dear Oristar,

<sigh> Well... I tried. I found a Chinese-English dictionary online which I like very much but perhaps it is not giving me good translations. It has many features including a simplified drawing for any of the Chinese words, which I like. This is it...

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php

As for me trying to understand any Chinese couplets, it does seem better to let a little of what each word apparently means flow over me and pick up a feeling for the entire thing, rather than try to translate it into an English sentence. Of course, I know I'm missing all the nuances of similarities of sound, references to other pieces of literature, plus the obvious inability to know for sure what each word is meaning. That's why I marvel at how well you are able to manage in English.

Surely the New Year's celebrations aren't over yet. The full moon is still more than a week away and that is the culmination, right? Red Lanterns & one more feast, I heard. Sounds like fun.

Best,
Piffka


Are these the same poems?

Pu sa man
People all say the southland's better --
for a traveler, the southland's the place to grow old,
springtime waters bluer than the sky,
painted boats where you listen to the rain and doze --

Beside the wine-warmer, someone like the moon,
pale arms two drifts of frozen snow.
"You're not that old -- don't go home --
go home and your heart is bound to break!"

李白
菩萨蛮
平林漠漠烟如织,
寒山一带伤心碧。
暝色入高楼,
有人楼上愁。

玉梯空伫立,
宿鸟归飞急。
何处是归程,
长亭连短亭。
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2005 02:06 am
Dear Piffka,

The two poems are not the same. The first one was written by Wei Zhuang (836-910), a poet of Tang Dynasty. When in Chengdu he was living in the Du Fu's Cottage (Chengdu Du Fu Thatched Cottage), his Collected Poems was thus titled as Flower Bathing Collection (after the beauty spot the Flower Bathing Brook of the Du Fu's Cottage Museum). Mr.Wei had served as prime minister when Wang Jiang declared himself emperor in Chengdu and officially named his nation as Da Shu. Here is his original Chinese poem:

菩萨蛮
韦庄

人人尽说江南好
游人只合江南老
春水碧于天
画船听雨眠

垆边人似月
皓腕凝霜雪
未老莫还乡
还乡须断肠

And the English version of Li Po's Pu Sa Man is as below:

Pu Sa Man
by Li Bai
A flat-top forest stretches far in embroidered mist;
A cluster of mountains cool is tinged with heartbreak blue.
The mansion in creeping dusk is clad,
Someone up there is sad.
On marble steps I stand forlorn.
Birds fly hurriedly by back to roost.
Where, pray, is the way home?
Along a string of wayside pavilions I roam.

Yes, the Chinese New Year celebrations are not over yet.Very Happy

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Feb, 2005 11:53 am
Dear Oristar,

Well, I like them both. They had me confused with the same titles.

Have been reading Li Sao. I like the Jerah Johnson version. He seems tireless in explaining the details. What an excellent piece of literature.

Best,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Feb, 2005 04:37 am
Dear Piffka,

Pu Sa Man, one of the musical forms of Jiaofang (music school or learning school) of Tang Dynasty, originally the name of a female dancing team.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2005 07:46 pm
Piffka wrote:
Dear Oristar,

Living our lives happily means different things to different people, doesn't it? For some, it is having enough to eat, for others it is keeping their calories down and their bodies slim, and for a few others, it is knowing that everyone has enough to eat. Of course, since everyone does not have enough to eat, those few are never really happy.

The ways to determine the mechanisms of the brain are similarly scattered and each also has its own validity. Some scientist are trying to solve the mystery by measuring the chemicals of the brain. Others, think it can be discovered by how people react to experimental questions, and there are a few who say that our seemingly invisible consciousness can only be understood philosophically.

A year ago, I attended a short series of lectures on learning bird songs. The scientist who led the talk amazed us with his experimental findings -- that the ability to learn a bird song (by a bird) was linked to hormones which caused certain parts of both the bird's brain and the bird's throat to enlarge & change during the course of the seasons. Timing was everything -- it could only happen during a certain short period in the age of the young bird and the ambient light and temperature of the air had to be just right. Each bird baby needed to learn from a male of its species (which had previously been taught in the correct way). Both needed a specific set of hormones in a certain order that could enable them to teach and learn. Each needed to be healthy, well-fed, and living in the proper environment. (Do I need to say that in order for this to be figured out, many birds needed to be "sacrificed" on the altar of science?")

Despite the scientists' understanding of the mechanism (and this was for just one species of songbird), there was still no way to understand why it had come to be in such a way. We say they evolved, but that is just as a word. The more we know, it seems, the more questions need to be asked.

Can we learn anything from those birds? Our children also need to be taught at the proper times in their development. Their teachers need to be available. The culture needs to be stable and the environment healthy. Of course we know that because of our short lives, this passing on of information is vital in order for our species to continue.

So our minds can be observed from the process of education. Or, our thinking can be observed from a comparison with other animals. That professor, William Calvin, has become (among other things) an expert on great apes and how their thinking processes compare to ours. Do they create internal maps of their surroundings? Do they think ahead? Do they recognize death? How do they teach their young? We know that they are different from us, but how different and in what ways are they similar?

We can also view our thinking processes from the freeform patterns of our dreams and our creativity. Those are an extraordinary window into the connections that exist within our minds, a weaving of memories and experiences with emotions and, some say, a genetic set of iconic symbols inherent in each of us. All these ways to look at ourselves are very interesting and leads us to better ways to teach, to heal and, in the end, to be happy. But will it ever make us understand what a single individual needs?

Apparently, the leader of NK has stronger needs than most of us. Can you imagine being called "Golden Sun" by an entire country, especially when that country is neither golden nor sun-kissed? False promises and a false identity are, I think, the signs of either mental illness or criminal behavior. Perhaps what he really needs would be found in Hollywood where, if he were truly popular, he could receive the accolades bestowed on a movie star. What of the North Koreans themselves -- Have they lost touch with reality? Are they saying these things because they know nothing different? We can look at the lessons from the songbirds and wonder if the education of an entire country was warped at a crucial stage in their lives.

Thanks for sharing that photograph. It is sad. It makes me wonder if there is anything we can do to help or whether, like the Chinese, they must help themselves.

The English romantic poet, Percy Bysshe Shelley, wrote an ode to a songbird that to me is appropriate here. These are the last few stanzas of To A Skylark:

Quote:

... We look before and after,
And pine for what is not:
Our sincerest laughter
With some pain is fraught;
Our sweetest songs are those that tell of saddest thought.

Yet if we could scorn
Hate, and pride, and fear;
If we were things born
Not to shed a tear,
I know not how thy joy we ever should come near.

Better than all measures
Of delightful sound,
Better than all treasures
That in books are found,
Thy skill to poet were, thou scorner of the ground!

Teach me half the gladness
That thy brain must know,
Such harmonious madness
From my lips would flow
The world should listen then, as I am listening now!

Percy Bysshe Shelley
(c.1820)


It is funny to think that the beautiful birdsong may just be a mix of the right hormones. Very Happy Somehow, that doesn't have nearly the poetic value of believing that bird is singing its heart out with gladness.

Best,
Piffka


Dear Piffka,

I wish everyone's life could be full of colour. All the different forms of happiness you've described would contribute to such a way of life.

But an interesting phenomenon is that there are some people who would like to live a life of simplicity, which is even as simple as B&W. That is cool, as long as they feel that is a special happiness for them.

You've listed some traditional ways with which people have been trying hard to figure out the mechanism of human consciousness. So far all of these have only made a pitiful progress. However, recently researchers at California have been planning to produce mice with brains made up almost entirely of human cells. They announced they've broken a new ground on the research of how human brain works. Well, it sounds horrified in a way. Because it is very difficult to determine whether a mouse with a brain made up almost entirely of human brain cells is human or animal.

I'd like to know whether William Calvin would be stunned by the Californian researchers. Very Happy

Learning bird songs is an interesting story. But consciousness is in particular human's patent. Any birds don't have consciousness,although a bird song can be very complex. So the scientist's hormone theory is acceptable.

We humans are evolved from animal kingdom, including birds. I think the research of birds would inspire us with more or less information. I agree with you that " passing on of information is vital in order for our species to continue."

So far only we humans can really plan ahead, while animals' seemingly "thinking ahead" is the result of hormone change. Very Happy

Quote:
The apes I know behave every living, breathing moment as though they have minds that are very much like my own. They may not think about as many things, or in the depth that I do, and they may not plan as far ahead as I do. Apes make tools and coordinate their actions during the hunting of prey, such as monkeys. But no ape has been observed to plan far enough ahead to combine the skills of tool construction and hunting for a common purpose. Such activities were a prime factor in the lives of early hominids. These greater skills that I have as a human being are the reason that I am able to construct my own shelter, earn my own salary, and follow written laws. They allow me to behave as a civilized person but they do not mean that I think while apes merely react.
Sue Savage-Rumbaugh, 1994


Animals observe their circumstances, teach their young, and recognize death with their instinct. While we humans are greatly different. One of the key factors is that we have syntax as the foundation of our intelligence. Without syntax, we would not be so much better than apes.

Regarding dream analysis, Freud did a lot, who has inspired us a lot, too.

One of the causes that lead to the tragical situation of NK people is that they terribly lack necessary information with which they can correctly recognize the rest of the world. Can you imagine that their TV set or radio has to be officially fixed on one or two channels of their central television stations which just propagand how great their leaders are and how evil the United States is? The worse, such "programs" can only keep several hours a day because of the great lack of electrical power; and, most of NK people don't have TV sets even radios, just like 70's Chinese people did. If you are interested in this, I'd like to introduce more according to Chinese travellers' visiting to NK.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2005 10:42 pm
Dear Oristar,
Nice to have you back!!! I hope you celebrated until it almost got boring. Wink There's a beautiful full moon tonight.

http://www.jerrychunn.com/photo-panel3.gif

You surprised me with the news of the mouse with a human brain experiment. I hadn't heard about this, but you are right... the experimenter (Irv Weissman, director of Stanford University's Institute of Cancer/Stem Cell Biology and Medicine in California) says he plans to start later this year. I have some ethical problems with that and I'm not sure I can explain all the reasons why. Part of it is the horror of imagining a human personality stuck inside the body of a mouse, which I suppose is far-fetched. Still, I don't like it. What do you think?

Funny you should say that birds don't think ahead. I was just at another lecture about birds (you probably wonder why I go to bird lectures! Very Happy). This time the subject was Corvids which include crows & ravens. They have, btw, the largest brain capacities of the bird world... similar percentage-wise to both humans and dolphins. We were shown an amazing short film from Oxford University of a crow named Betty who quickly determined that she needed to make a hook from wire, which she did, to pull up a tiny bucket that had food in it. Our lecturer said she had made the hook the very first time she was given the problem. It was fascinating to watch. Here is a link to the short movie. I don't see how we can describe what she does as coming just from hormones. Apparently that kind of crow (New Caledonia Crow or Corvus monoeduloides) is well-known for using tools.

I'd like to know more about what you mean by our use of syntax as the foundation of our intelligence. It sounds like an interesting subject.

I'd also like to know more about the North Koreans. Please do tell me what the Chinese visitors say. I am sure that the lives of the N. Koreans must be very hard, but I thought at one time theirs was a very advanced culture. How similar is their written language to Chinese?

Best,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 10:58 am
Dear Piffka,

The Californian researchers seem intended to play an edge ball. That is, like dangerous politicians play their brinkmanship tricks, they want to see how human brain cells work, yet at the same time try their best to avoid a human personality to appear inside the body of a mouse. We know if a human baby was born to hear nothing, see nothing, and to be isolated from any human companies or communities, he would grow up as an animal, although his brain is physiologically of human. I think this is why the researchers would insist on the eye-catching experiment.

I've not absolutely denied that some animals, including birds, can in a way think ahead. Because all animals are on the way of evolution, after all. But even Primates, none of them have been observed to plan far enough ahead to combine the skills of tool construction and hunting for a common purpose. So basically, any animals could not think ahead. Crows or ravens are smartest in comparison to other birds. But they are absolutely stupid when comparing to humans. However, I think you've been romantically inspired by what Betty did, and calling for her "Bird Rights".That is understandable, since you are always so poetic. Very Happy

"Syntax as a Foundation of Intelligence" is the fifth chapter of William H. Calvin' How Brains Think". Click here:
http://www.williamcalvin.com/bk8/bk8ch5.htm

Today's NK would be a greatly long story. I'll get round to translate some for you later. Korean language seems utterly independent of from Chinese. There is no similarity between written Korean and Chinese. Rather than Japanese written language, I could not recognize even one word of Korean!

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Feb, 2005 11:47 am
Dear Oristar,

Californians and edge-ball... haha. You've probably heard that when this continent was made, it was tilted to the west and all the loose nuts fell into that state? (However, I have to admit, I was born there.Wink)

You amaze me with your interest in Dr. Calvin. His is such a complicated work... and esoteric, too. Did you like his "vacuum engine" with one part of a sentence needing to pick up another part? Is there something similar in the Chinese language syntax? I'm sure what you meant me for me to read and understand is that there seems to be an innate language model in children. That, I suppose, is what separates us from other beasts. Having seen two children learn language, I can think of little that is more enjoyable than watching them come into their own and being able to be among the first to hear what they really think. It can be surprising... but what I've seen is that children begin with a great kindness & curiosity which also seemed to me to be innate.

Anyway, I particularly liked the image of this quote, lighting up an area of the brain in response to mental gyrations. It reminded me of how the hormonal awakening within the bird brains was described.
Quote:
If we could see the transition to fancier constructions in bonobos, however, we might be able to discover what sorts of learning augment syntax, what other tasks compete and so hinder language, and what brain areas "light up" in comparison to those in humans.


I don't remember exactly calling for rights for Betty, that New Caledonian Crow... just admiration (though I am pleased you see this as part of my "poetic" nature). Very Happy I enjoy learning about the world and all its strange and munificent variety. I wouldn't want to change nature except that I wish I could change human nature so we'd be more willing to respect the worthiness of animals. It has been shown that those who cannot treat animals well are less likely to respect other humans. In the end though, I suppose it can be seen that my preference is a self-serving quest -- I want to be surrounded by people who treat me well. (Don't we all?) I hope you were able to look at some of the short films of Betty's work. She is a clever bird.

It astounds me that Korean and Chinese are not close, yet they have (to me) somewhat similar-looking words. Each word seems to be written within an invisible box and, of course, neither has the individual letters of English. Did I understand you correctly... you can read Japanese and it is similar to Chinese?

I am hoping that you will not forget to tell me more about the Chinese travelers in North Korea. Meanwhile, I found this interesting poem from the Korean poet, Kim Chun-su. Interesting that he equates poetry with the life force coming through a spring-awakened tree.

Speaking of being poetic... I have been thinking about living life not in color, but in b&w, from your earlier post. I'm not sure I understand that either.

Best,
Piffka


Quote:
The Bare Tree; a Prologue to Poetry

The winter sky vanishes into a mysterious depth;
the infinite, which may or may not be,
has dropped the luxuriant foliage and fruits,
making the fig tree stand bare;
but might that be poetry
that is almost, almost reaching the tip
of the sensitive twig?
the moment language is asleep,
without words,
the infinite comes smiling
the luxuriant foliage and fruits dropping as historical
events:
but might that be poetry
that blinks at the tip
of the sensitive twig?
Kim Chun-su
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 09:36 am
Dear Piffka,

Let's say "Good luck" to the Californian researchers!

"The Calvin Vacuum engine"? I think you've actually referred to "the Calvin Vacuum-Lifter Pacdage-Carrying System". I think there is a similarity in Chinese language. And yes, there is probably an innate "language module" in human brain. See the quote from Calvin's below. It've answered your question well:

Quote:
"language module"


You think Korean looks similar to Chinese (all in an invisible box), and I deem the two are absolutely different. Very Happy Regarding Japanese, I meant to recognize some kanjis, which originated from or were Chinese (with different pronunciations in Japan).

Regarding Today's NK, Now see the pics (Caption: No Unemployment in NK ):
http://www.china727.net/china/dprktp/dprkxw/prshch4.jpg
http://www.china727.net/china/dprktp/dprkxw/prshch3.jpg
http://www.china727.net/china/dprktp/dprkxw/prshch2.jpg
http://www.china727.net/china/dprktp/dprkxw/prshch1.jpg
http://www.china727.net/china/dprktp/dprkxw/prshch6.jpg

What could we say when seeing these? "the moment language is asleep,without words."

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Feb, 2005 11:43 am
oristarA wrote:

"The Calvin Vacuum engine"? I think you've actually referred to "the Calvin Vacuum-Lifter Package-Carrying System".


Dear Oristar,
Yes... what a funny name. Laughing

What did you think of this -- "The drive to study arithmetic is not innate"? It gets better with mathematics, I guess.

I am struck by the obviousness that most learning is done by imitation. It implies that you need to have a good model, doesn't it? There is a carryover in birds -- bird song is learned through imitation... bird culture is expressed by "tribes" who have learned by watching others near them. There are crows in Japan who have learned to crush a kind of hard nut under the wheels of cars. Quite interesting how this new "trick" has spread across a small area over the years and how their culture has affected the human culture. (The drivers try to crush the nuts for the birds ... who have learned to line up the nut to the wheel.)

Quote:
There is, of course, a "language module"


Every time there is a difference in tissue within the brain, different hormones may flood that area. Odd that nobody knows where apes have a "lateral language area" isn't it?

Quote:
You think Korean looks similar to Chinese (all in an invisible box), and I deem the two are absolutely different.


I can usually look at Korean or Chinese and tell which is which, but I don't know why. Very Happy The difference between Korean & Chinese doesn't seem much stronger than the different styles of writing Chinese. I am used to 26 small letters making up different words, y'know. I have a lot of problems remembering to read right to left, too. Wink Tell me some of the Japanese kanjis that you know, please.

Those photographs are upsetting to me. The people look unhappy and horribly regimented. Why all the tables? (That's what we do in the library for our little book sales.) Why only women? Why so many? There seems to be an undercurrent of fear or discomfort. Nobody is actually working. There are some who seem to be policing the others (those on the balcony in the last photo... the younger woman standing up and not in quite the same color uniform in the first).

Best,
Piffka

To compare to the Koreans photos... a typical American style tradeshow (except it is not very crowded, probably taken on a Thursday morning):
http://www.seattlehomeshow.com/images/picture5.jpg
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Mar, 2005 08:53 am
Dear Piffka,

My connection to Internet has failed me for more than one day and now just recovered. Very Happy
So I'll have to reply your post tomorrow.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Mar, 2005 02:05 am
Dear Piffka,

I would like to think "The drive to study arithmetic is not innate" in depth and might want to collect some data to prove it or disprove it. It needs time doing so with both my scientific sense and intuition.

It is reasonable that we modern humans are born to have a "language module". Millions of years of evolution has gradually formed the module. In hominid the module would be quite primordial, I am almost sure for it.

There should be enough apes for experimental observations with which scientists can figure out whether apes have the same language module in their brain or not. Hmm, an ape must be so expensive that the scientists concerned might not be able to afford it and other devices. Just a guess.

Kanjis basically have the same meanings with Chinese, for example:
http://www.nippontravel.net/_borders/_derived/top.htm_txt_kyoto_scroll.gif

The kanjis on the banner read "Yamato Wind Tourism Company".

And: http://www.hpk.co.jp/

Those photos were taken at the United Market, the biggest commodity distribution center in Pyongyang. Every woman working there is a "shopkeeper", who shares a table with others and whose goods are displayed for the width of her shoulders. So many women? That would be called "efficient" in the NK official dictionary. Still, they are children of fortune compared to residents outside of Pyongyang, which is considered a window particularly open to foreigners. Yes, I think that, under strong political pressure, they cannot effectively conceal their "undercurrent of fear and discomfort".

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 01:31 pm
Dear Oristar,
What do you think is the best that should be done for the people of North Korea? We want everyone to be "children of fortune."

That would be wonderful if you could show that children do have an innate interest in arithmetic or mathematics. How would you go about making an experiment like that?

I am surprised that so much of Japanese uses Chinese words but I'm not surprised that the pronunciation might be very, very different. I can see myself one day being able to read a tiny, tiny bit of Chinese, but never able to speak it.

I looked into the policies for scientific study of great apes and found this from the National Health and Medical Research Council from Australia. I think most countries are reticent to use the endangered ape in medical studies for various ethical reasons. I thought you might be interested:

http://www7.health.gov.au/nhmrc/research/awc/nonhuman.htm

Best,
Piffka

Do you know the poem by Chu Yuan called "The Soothsayer"?
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2005 09:39 am
Dear Piffka,

They need truth about the rest of the world. For them, truth is stranger than fiction.

If we know the best way of letting them know the truth of the rest of the world, we will get the best that should be done for the people of North Korea.

I think those in the pics seemed not so bad comparing to 20 million poor Chinese people who live on/under Chinese Poverty Line, which is defined as "yearly income is lower than 80 USD, or 627 yuan according to Chinese govt report. Because all NK's people could get their houses free of charge from their govt, but most of Chinese people not, especially the poor population.

I would design my experiment, which will figure out whether there is an "arithmetic module" in children's brains, as this:

1)The observation of the rigidities when children do their arithmetic. (Please compare to the observation of the rigidities of grammar.) I think the result of the observation would lead to "no innate". Because unlike learning language, no regidity could be found out in learning arithmetic.

2)Try to locate the "arithmetic module" in children's brains. (Compare to the "language module", I think this would help to find the "arithmetic module" is not innate.

You see, scientists have inclined to the conclusion of "that a drive to learn arithmetic is not innate".

I think Chu Yuan's The Soothsayer is referring to "Bu Ju". Chu Yuan was so confused that others were so jealous because of his faithful character, and that he would be exiled because of his royality (while those traitorous ministers would rise high and get highly appreciated by the king.) So he wrote the poem.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 07:47 pm
Dear Oristar,

I am sorry to have delayed writing... I've been thinking. Very Happy ... mostly about the innate abilities in light of the Harvard University president's speaking towards the differences in aptitude between men & women (re. Harvard President Summers' comments on women in science):

Quote:


I wonder about the arithmetic & mathematical components mostly because I know people who like to count everything. There are also "Idiot Savants" who often have amazing abilities with numbers, counting & the like.

I am shocked that there are so many Chinese people living in what seems to me to be extremem poverty conditions, especially that you think that their lives in North Korea might be better. Horrible. I thought there was a new wave of prosperity in China?

The world is so difficult. Be well.

Best,
Piffka

PS -- Thanks for the explanation of the Soothsayer. I thought the twist in the ending was good.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 08:42 am
Dear Piffka,

Everyone has his own idea, and so does Summers. He didn't speaking on behalf of Harvard, so there is no big deal about his prejudice towards women's under-representation of science faculties. Science, before it comes to light, needs discussion in which everyone can join and talk freely. Very Happy

In every field there are some "Idiot Savants". But statistically speaking, they can not represent the public, which is the target of the research of "innate drive" discussed in How Brains Think.

The life condition of the poor in China is generally better than that of in NK. What I meant is that the life condition of Pyongyang residents is better than that of the poor in China.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Mar, 2005 11:42 am
Dear Oristar,

I agree that everyone should say what they think. Perhaps it was a slow-news day when that comment was so widely reported? However, the prejudiced belief of a person's ability makes a big difference in how that person might learn... which made his expression of belief a little shocking, coming from an educator.

Don't you think that the standard abilities of people are often understood better by seeing extraordinary abilities within the population? That's why I mentioned the savants... and one of their most frequent abilities is with mathematics. The others are memory (that seems related to mathematic ability, to me) and music (which has a strong mathematical connection -- like the exact number of vibrations in a tone, the timing of a melody, the relationships between chords, etc.).

Quote:
The autistic savant is one of the most fascinating cognitive phenomena in psychology. "Autistic savant" refers to individuals with autism who have extraordinary skills not exhibited by most persons. Historically, individuals with these exceptional skills were called 'idiot savants,' a French term meaning unlearned (idiot) skill (savant). In a 1978 article in Psychology Today, Dr. Bernard Rimland introduced a more appropriate term 'autistic savant,' which is the current label.

The estimated prevalence of savant abilities in autism is 10%, whereas the prevalence in the non-autistic population, including those with mental retardation, is less than 1%.

There are many forms of savant abilities. The most common forms involve mathematical calculations, memory feats, artistic abilities, and musical abilities. A mathematical ability which many autistic individuals display is calendar memory. They could be asked a question like: 'What day of the week was May 22, 1961? and they can determine the answer within seconds--Monday. Others can multiply and divide large numbers in their head and can also calculate square roots and prime numbers without much hesitation.
from http://www.autism.org/savant.html


Perhaps we should be thinking of them as mathematical poets?

So, I think numbers have a resonance with people, too, as words do. I see the demands of arithmetic & memorizing large sets of relationships as separate from mathematics, btw. The beauty of logic & the facility of numbers can be, to me, fairly entrancing. For that reason, I think I am not totally convinced in an innate difference for humans to learn numbers versus words. I've been trying to think of an experiment that would definitely show it.

Anyway, isn't the determination of quantity as an important an aspect of life as communications within a culture? (I don't know... I'm thinking out-loud. Very Happy)

You seem to be saying that people in a city live better than those in a rural area? In the United States we have some awful urban poverty. I believe I'd rather be a poor person in the country than in the city. At least in the country a person can grow food, have an animal, breathe clean air. All of those things, to me, increase a person's real quality of life. Is there always better access to good jobs and schools and medical care when you are surrounded by hundreds... millions of others competing for the same thing in a city? I worry about all the people who "fall through the cracks" and don't find a good niche for themselves. Life is short.

Best,
Piffka
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2005 12:26 pm
Dear Piffka,

Science is well-organized knowledge, like a well-structured poem, and the mastery of a particular scientific field like mathematics would be poetic. But science is science, and poem is poem, let them stand on their own feet. Very Happy

Yes, extraordinary abilities can sometimes be the good source of scientific inspiration. But the research based on the investigation of standard abilities is essential, after all.

Most likely, the arithmetic module is evolving; that is, it began as an embryo in its early stage in womb. But the language module in the human brain may have been a baby.

What I meant is that the people in the pictures of Pyongyang United Market, for whom you evince much sympathy, enjoy better living conditions than do the poor in China.

Best,
Oristar
0 Replies
 
 

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