Poetry: Composition and Appreciation

Dear Piffka,

Thanks for posting the Memorial pic. I like it. Because its simplicity seems properly reflecting Lincoln, the Great Liberator's honesty and his deep wisdom.

Yes the liberator has been assassinated, but his great spirit could never be assassinated. O Captain! My Captain! You will live in our heart forever!

Long history of China I appreciate, and short history of America I admire! Both are cool and both inspire!

Best,

Oristar

Dear Oristar,
I'm glad you liked the picture of the Lincoln Memorial. I had to do some searching to find a photo that showed the reflecting pool. That, to me, is the essential feature of the place.

I am enjoying reading (though slowly) the 300 Tang Poems. Some website mentioned Du Mu, so I started to read at his poems. This first one, I liked very much. At first I thought, ahhh, this is a straightforward poem -- no references to any ancient generals. I loved that it included so many of the images we've discussed: the moon, geese, fishing, loneliness.

But then I was surprised when I examined the translations of each ideogram, the English translation did not seem to be complete or exact. There were differences from the beginning -- for example, the second line seems to say that there were no "good" companions at the tavern... not that he was overcome with loneliness and grief.

And instead of "reading about the news of home a year late," it seems to me that it could as easily be translated "There has been no news from home for a year," which is similar but different.

It also seems like it could be that in his sleep it is possibly a dream that the wild-goose gives a warning cry, not that he wakens to a real goose. How do we know?

The cang1 ideogram 沧 doesn't seem to be used at all -- it is my favorite color. I'd at least like to see the adjectives of cold or vast in the poem.


Ahhh, translating poetry is confusing!

Best,
Piffka

旅宿

旅馆无良伴， 凝情自悄然。
寒灯思旧事， 断雁警愁眠。
远梦归侵晓， 家书到隔年。
沧江好烟月， 门系钓鱼船。

A Night at a Tavern

Solitary at the tavern,
I am shut in with loneliness and grief.
Under the cold lamp, I brood on the past;
I am kept awake by a lost wildgoose.
...Roused at dawn from a misty dream,
I read, a year late, news from home -
And I remember the moon like smoke on the river
And a fisher-boat moored there, under my door.
Du Mu


So here is another and slightly different version I put together for your amusement.

No good friends at the travelers' inn,
A hard situation, it brings on my sadness.
In that cold light I consider my former life.
Warnings from a wild goose break my sleep.
As the dawn approaches I return to my distant dreams.
A year separates me from news of home.
On that blue-green river I smoked under the moon
And fished from a boat now tied to my gate.

Dear Piffka,

I am amused that you tried to translate the Chinese poem into English. I think it might be of use in learning Chinese. I could see that you have tried hard to translate it, especially you offered the first line interestingly. However, I agreed with the translator that he has translated the poem well, not as what you indicated -- "the English translation did not seem to be complete or exact."
For some reason, I would not explain all questions for you. I chose some and explained them as below:

1) You said "There were differences from the beginning -- for example, the second line seems to say that there were no "good" companions at the tavern... not that he was overcome with loneliness and grief.'

It doesn't need to literally translate the Chinese word "好" into English good. Without a good companion, you are solitary, right?
"凝情自悄然"==>>>I am shut in with loneliness and grief. That is, "he was overcome with loneliness and grief".

2) 家书到隔年 ==>> I read, a year late, news from home.
The translator has translated it exactly.

3) 断雁警愁眠 ==>> I am kept awake by a lost wildgoose.
Yes, exactly. You've misunderstood "警". 断雁 refers to "a lost wildgoose" who yanned pitifully, not made "warning cry".

4) 沧江好烟月 ==>> And I remember the moon like smoke on the river
沧江 refers to "river", and it is unnecessarily to translate "沧", like "沧海" refers to "the sea", needless to translate it as "the deep blue sea'.
And your "I smoked under the moon" is obviously a misunderstanding of Chinese "烟月".

5) 门系钓鱼船 ==>> And a fisher-boat moored there, under my door.
Exactly.
门系钓鱼船 ==>> And fished from a boat now tied to my gate.
Not exactly translated the Chinese.

It is hard for a foreigner to catch the nuances in Chinese poems.
To tell the truch, even Chinese pupils cannot easily understand the nuances. They are taught to just recite poems, needlessly to get them exactly. But by the time when they've learned enough Chinese article and knowledge, they would naturally understand what the poems refer to.

Best,
Oristar

I am watching this thread with fascination.

Hi Cav --
I see you've got your animated avatar. Very cool. I like the "fast action," it reminds me of my brother somehow.

Go ahead and jump in... you don't have to just watch.

Dear Oristar,
Good. I hoped to amuse you - it is a goal in my life to keep people smiling. So the cang1/ aqua blue is not used anywhere as a color, but instead mixes with the water to make a river. I have wondered about this... what is smoke on a river? Mist? Smoke from fires nearby? Very confusing.

Do these nuances come from word order? And they say English is difficult!

I am not surprised that my translation was so wrong about the poem, though I amused myself as well, thinking of Du Mu "smoking" by the river and thinking about fishing. I do think it has helped me to be more aware of each Chinese word. That's a good thing.

I may read and "translate" another poem later today, but I am going to the ballet in Seattle early and won't have much time. The dances I will be seeing are from George Balanchine who said, "The ballet is flowers, beauty, poetry" and he wanted "to make audiences see music and hear dancing." Should be good.

I am enjoying this website: The Sacred Mountains of China. You have the most wonderful history -- it is like a fairy-tale.

Best,
Piffka

Dear Piffka,

The smoke here refers to as 'vaper' suspended in the air. The vaper or fog was so thick as to make the moon look vague. So the poet intoned: And I remember the moon like smoke on the river .

Where the nuances come from? They are some idiomatic usages that go without saying. Like those imdiomatic usages in English, foreigners feel difficult to understand them exactly.

Just do it if you feel something is right. You may said something in Chinese here, I'd like to edit it for you.

Ballet is a living poem, right?

I don't appreciate Buddhism, I wouldn't comment on matters involving it. As for the fact that in Ancient China people thought the tallest mountains in China is the pillars supporting Heaven from falling, that is true. The fairy-tales run around Chinese for more than 3000 years.

Best,
Oristar

Dear Oristar,

You are so right, "ballet is a living poem" is exactly it; beautiful, full of metaphor and emotion.

My apologies if I somehow offended you with that "Sacred Sites" website. I didn't see it as a Buddhist one -- some of those mountains were Taoist, I think, and other links by that author include Christian sacred sites. Anyway, I'm not Buddhist either. What *I* am interested in is what people, especially ancient people, consider special. I'm trying to "visit" China in a virtual way and looking at lots of things online.

I am very much enjoying reading the 300 Tang Poems and "reading" the five character mode. Because there were so many poems, I decided to quit jumping around and have begun at the beginning of the shorter ancient poems -- Five-character-ancient-verse -- 五 言 古 詩. I found this one to have many interesting points, both from the translation and from my "fractured" translation of the individual Chinese words.

I. Thoughts
Zhang Jiuling

A lonely swan from the sea flies,
To alight on puddles it does not deign.
Nesting in the poplar of pearls
It spies and questions green birds twain:
"Don't you fear the threat of slings,
Perched on top of branches so high?
Nice clothes invite pointing fingers,
High climbers god's good will defy.
Bird-hunters will crave me in vain,
For I roam the limitless sky."

I was surprised that the title doesn't match the individual four characters in the title...
ONE - HIS - MEETING WITH - FEELINGS/ SENSE

I wondered if there is a particular tree that is meant by Poplar of Pearls? Also, I wondered if either of these birds is what you envision when you read that poem?




The repetition of 矯 and 冥 seemed significant to me.

And I was surprised to fiind this word 美 in there, too. I guess it evolved from the sound? In looking up "mei3" I was amazed/ amused by this 美 乃 滋 醬 mei3 nai3 zi1 jiang4 (jam/sauce) : mayonnaise (I'm hoping that CavFancier will notice this... waiting... waiting...)

I begin to see that there is more to Chinese than I can learn in a lifetime, which might dishearten someone. I just find it is extraordinarily interesting.

Best,
Piffka

Here is an English Poem, just to keep you "on your toes" -- an idiom that you likely know.

Cannon Beach

Who love these rocks have studied to endure.
The tall waves roar
And break their whitest on those basalt snags:
Foam mounts like wings
Out of a sound unchanged since Genesis.

The ocean heaves the weight of time ashore:
The rocks stand sheer.
White seafowl slowly skim immobile nests.
Fish blue with warts,
Eyes glazed by water, swim under the blue surface.

Where one black monolith makes immortal thrust
And waves smash most,
Light like a halo holds the primitive tip.
From cape to cape
That rigid word orders the surge of chaos.

Nelson Bentley from Sea Lion Caves

Dear Piffka,

It is inevitable to face different religious cultures when trying to get a comprehensive understanding of ancient China. You've done nothing wrong, dear Piffka. So you didnt need to apologize. Looking back history is for better looking ahead. I wish you will get a clear picture about ancient China by visiting cyberspace.

Zhang Jiuling （AD673-740） is a famous prime minister during Kaiyuan period of Tang Dynasty. And the poem "Thoughts" is one of the best-known poems written by him. The translator did translate the title well. In Chinese, the title is "Gan Yu" in Pinyin. He wrote 12 "Gan Yu" poems in total, and four of them have been collected into the 300 Tang Poems. "Gan Yu" refers to "Some thoughts in my life" or "Some thoughts of what I experienced in my life", so using "Thoughts" as the title of the poem is acceptable.

Poplar of Pearls is a metaphor referring to the classes, and nest "a family of dignitary". So Zhang intoned:"Nice clothes invite pointing fingers, High climbers god's good will defy."

So you would understand the birds refer to dignitaries or members of the family.

Regarding "美", the upper part of it is like "羊"(sheep),and the lower part like "大". Mutton is a main subsidiary foodstuff for ancient Chinese, A nice plump sheep's mutton tastes delicious. "美" originally refers to "being delicious".

Nelson's poem reminds me of Break, Break, Break
by Alfred Tennyson
Break, break, break,
On thy cold grey stones, O Sea!
And I would that my tongue could utter
The thoughts that arise in me.

O well for the fisherman's boy,
That he shouts with his sister at play!
O well for the sailor lad,
That he sings in his boats on the bay!

And the stately ships go on
To their haven under the hill;
But O for the touch of a vanish'd hand,
And the sound of a voice that is still!

Break, break, break,
At the foot of thy crags, O Sea!
But the tender grace of a day that is dead
Will never come back to me.

Best,
Oristar

Dear Oristar,
You are a fountain of knowledge about China for me! Thanks for your clear explanation. The insights you offer are very precious. There are so many things to study in this world... but it is poetry that attracts me.

I am astounded that you can find such a good poem to match the one by Nelson Bentley. It has some special meaning to me because as many military officers did, when my own father died, he requested that this poem by Alfred, Lord Tennyson be read at his memorial.

CROSSING THE BAR
Sunset and evening star,
And one clear call for me!
And may there be no moaning of the bar,
When I put out to sea,
But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
Too full for sound and foam,
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home.

Twilight and evening bell,
And after that the dark!
And may there be no sadness of farewell,
When I embark;

For though from out our bourne of Time and Place
The flood may bear me far,
I hope to see my Pilot face to face
When I have crossed the bar.

This sandbar protected the waterfront bay where my father lived. It is "the bar" I think of whenever I read that poem.


Getting back to Zhang Jiuling, this second poem's title definitely doesn't say Orchid and Orange I, but Thoughts II, however, I won't quibble.

Tender orchid-leaves in spring
And cinnamon- blossoms bright in autumn
Are as self- contained as life is,
Which conforms them to the seasons.
Yet why will you think that a forest-hermit,
Allured by sweet winds and contented with beauty,
Would no more ask to-be transplanted
Than would any other natural flower?

In the third line there is again the repetition of a word, 忻. "Happy" is the translation I have. The Piffka translation would be "Born with this idea Happy Happy."

Anyway... I see some differences, but I love the idea that a person has chosen to live a "natural life" is as natural... may be as beautiful... as any flower. I'm looking forward to hearing what the poem is really about.

Best,
Piffka

Dear Piffka,

My pleasure! Thanks for praising!

The philosophical poem was written by Zhang when he had been demoted to Jingzhou and served there as an adjutant. During the late Kaiyuan (Kaiyuan is one the most prosperous periods in ancient Chinese history), the emperor Tang Xuanzong indulged himself into merrymaking, gathering roses and neglecting national affairs. He demoted Zhang, spoiled Lee Linfu, who was honey on lips and murder in heart, and appreciated Niu Xianke, who was good at sucking up to him. Lee cliqued with Niu, keeping the imperial government under the clique's control, excluding any dissidents. Hence the government became more and more corrupt. Zhang was strongly upset by the governmental corruption, so he wrote 12 poems of Thoughts/Gan Yu, with the traditional metaphors - as pure as tender orchid-leaves in spring and cinnamon-blossoms in autumn, etc. - he spoke for himself that he would keep his high principles in his practice of politics, and never going along with the evil.

Maybe you have crossed the bar now?

I enjoy the two lines of a poem by Du Fu:

The boundless forest sheds its leaves shower by shower;
The endless river rolls its waves hour after hour

Best,
Oristar

I'm not sure about how long i've just stayed in here, couldn't help reading page to page. There are so many poems here which could almost equal the same amount I've done in the past few years! I learned a lot by this great post, thanks!

Lain -- How good to see you! How is school going?

Oristar and I have been having a great time sending poems to each other... well, at least *I* have been having a great time and he's putting up with all my questions. Oristar is very good at explaining these beautiful poems to me. But I doubt I would have dared to look at the Chinese words in the 300 Tang Poems if it weren't for your help and encouragement earlier this fall. You're welcome to join in -- please do!

Dear Oristar,
Wonderful explanation... I don't know if I've crossed the bar, but I'm beginning to see the light. I've been reading a little history of China and the Tang period. That emperor Tang Xuanzong seems like the worst kind of governmental leader. I was surprised to find that part of the reason there are so many poems from this period is during the ubiquitious examinations for government positions, each scholar was required to write poetry. For some... it seemed to become a habit, a very good habit.

I had to search a while to find the entire poem for the fragment you posted. Of course, I wondered about it and wanted to see the whole thing. In that website I've been using, it is translated like this:

A LONG CLIMB
In a sharp gale from the wide sky apes are whimpering,
Birds are flying homeward over the clear lake and white sand,
Leaves are dropping down like the spray of a waterfall,
While I watch the long river always rolling on.
I have come three thousand miles away. Sad now with autumn
And with my hundred years of woe, I climb this height alone.
Ill fortune has laid a bitter frost on my temples,
Heart-ache and weariness are a thick dust in my wine.

杜甫
登高

风急天高猿啸哀，
渚清沙白鸟飞回。
无边落木萧萧下，
不尽长江滚滚来。
万里悲秋常作客，
百年多病独登台。
艰难苦恨繁霜鬓，
潦倒新停浊酒杯。

But this is the translation you quoted... I found it here: http://oasis.fortunecity.com/cozumel/42/poetry_and_literature.htm

... and I think it is much more poetic:

CLIMBING THE HEIGHT
The wind so swift, the sky so steep, sad gibbons cry;
Water so clear and sand so white, backward birds fly.
The boundless forest sheds its leaves shower by shower;
The endless River rolls its waves hour after hour.

Far from home in autumn, I'm grieved to see my plight;
After my long illness, I climb alone this height.
Living in hard times, at my frosted hair I pine;
Pressed by poverty, I give up my cup of wine.

For one thing, I really like the repetition of words. It is very meaningful. I notice that besides the two words that are exactly alike, there is another pair that seems similar. These two: 艰难.

This poem uses repetition for emphasis and includes a near repetition, Henceforth to Henceforward, both of which mean the same thing (from now on).

HENCEFORTH, FROM THE MIND
Louise Bogan

Henceforth, from the mind,
For your whole joy, must spring
Such joy as you may find
In any earthly thing,
And every time and place
Will take your thought for grace.

Henceforth, from the tongue,
From shallow speech alone,
Comes joy you thought, when young,
Would wring you to the bone,
Would pierce you to the heart
And spoil its stop and start.

Henceforward, from the shell,
Wherein you heard, and wondered
At oceans like a bell
So far from ocean sundered --
A smothered sound that sleeps
Long lost within lost deeps,

Will chime you change and hours,
The shadow of increase,
Will sound you flowers
Born under troubled peace
Henceforth, henceforth
Will echo sea and earth.

Best,
Piffka

Hi Piffka, it's great to know i was helpful;) I'm doing ok these days just still got tons of homework... How about you? I read about your trip, the pics are nice!

I'd like to join in your discussion, but my poor English often lead to misunderstandings and sometimes i even failed to read your words. OristarA did an excellent job, English, History and Poem and literature and about everything. You dunno how much I envy him

P.S. I do like the English version for Chinese poems, Thanks for sharing!

Dear Piffka,

I had a blackout in my area today, and just now I could log on to the net.
So I will have to reply you tomorrow.
But I'd have a few words here.

I am so pleased that you've exactly found Du Fu's CLIMBING THE HEIGHT to match the two lines that I appreciated. The second version is so pretty, neat and, ABSOLUTELY COOL! Because the version is offered by Xu Yuanchong, professor of Beijing Univ., a famous translator in China, who is noted for his aestheticism in the practice of translating Chinese poems into English.

Hmm, I think I've forgot to comment on your "translation" in your previous post - "In the third line there is again the repetition of a word, 忻. "Happy" is the translation I have. The Piffka translation would be "Born with this idea Happy Happy.""

Actually, 忻 does not mean "happy" there. It refers to (grow) "luxuriantly". 忻 is 欣 in "欣欣向荣", which is one of the most commonly used Chinese idioms. "欣欣向荣" means "grow luxuriantly". If you knew this idiom, you would not misunderstand 欣 or 忻 as "happy". Also, "生意" means "life and vitality" in the poem, not meaning "born with this idea". You should judge it according to its context. But it is really hard for a foreigner to do so.

Best,
Oristar


PS.

Hi Lain,

Welcome to join the thread!

Dear Oristar,
Well, right you are... it is hard for a foreigner to understand, but that's what makes it so interesting. I wonder if you'd ever heard Americans talking about their houseplants? If someone says, "Oh, that plant looks so happy there." It means that the plant is healthy and growing luxuriantly. Strange.

I still like "Happy, Happy." Who wouldn't!

Why did you have a blackout? Was there wind? We are told to expect "high winds" tonight and tomorrow. Winds of 40 miles per hour with gusts of 60. Maybe these winds that were in China have blown across the ocean and are now hitting my state.

I have been looking at more of the translations... the "better" ones. There are not too many on the website but this one, my old favorite by Li Bai, was close by. I'm sure you've seen this version, but I'd like to add it to our thread:

DRINKING ALONE UNDER THE MOON

A jug of wine amidst the flowers;
Drinking alone, with no friend near.
Raising my cup, I beckon the bright moon;
My shadow included, we're a party of three.
Although the moon's unused to drinking
And the shadow only apes my every move
For the moment I'll just take them as they are,
Enjoying spring when spring is here.
Reeling shadow, swaying moon
Attend my dance and song.
Still sober, we rejoice together;
Drunk, each takes his leave.
To seal forever such unfettered friendship
Let's rendezvous beyond the Milky Way.

<sigh> Very nice. I like the humorous thought of the moon being unused to drinking a lot better than the other translation:

"Alas, the moon was unable to drink"

I also like that it mentions the "Milky Way."


Best,
Piffka


Here's a nice poem from Millay:

ON HEARING A SYMPHONY OF BEETHOVEN

Sweet sounds, oh, beautiful music, do not cease!
Reject me not into the world again.
With you alone is excellence and peace,
Mankind made plausible, his purpose plain.
Enchanted in your air benign and shrewd,
With limbs a-sprawl and empty faces pale,
The spiteful and the stingy and the rude
Sleep like the scullions in the fairy-tale.
This moment is the best the world can give:
The tranquil blossom on the tortured stem.
Reject me not, sweet sounds; oh, let me live,
Till Doom espy my towers and scatter them,
A city spell-bound under the aging sun.
Music my rampart, and my only one.
EStVM

I hope Lain comes back!

Drinking wine
By Tao Yuanming (Translated by Xu Yuanchong)

In people's haunt I build my cot;
Of wheel's and hoof's noise I hear not.
How can it leave on me no trace?
Secluded heart makes secluded place.
I pick fenceside asters at will;
Carefree I see the southern hill.
The mountain air's fresh day and night;
Together birds go home in flight.
What revelation at this view?
Words fail if I try to tell you.

I think I'd better read Millay's ON HEARING A SYMPHONY OF BEETHOVEN later.
Best,
Oristar

Dear Oristar,

Well, I'm thinking about this idea grows luxuriantly. You're right... not the same thing. You could say it, it would seem odd but it would mean that the idea sprang forth luxuriantly, I guess. Don't say it though... people would look at you strangely.

I like this new poet you've introduced me to... I found this poem (not translated by Xu Yuanchong, I think, but it seems for most of his translations we need to find and buy the books).

Begging for Food
Tao Yuanming

The pangs of hunger drove me from my home;
with no idea of where to go
I travelled on for miles
until I reached a village,
knocked on the nearest door,
blurted out some clumsy words.

The owner understood my need
his warmth dispelled my shame
that I'd come empty-handed.

We played and sang till sunset,
the wine-cups often tilted,
with the pleasure of new-found friends
we chanted and composed verses.

I remember the story of the washerwoman. *
Ashamed that I lack the skills of general Han,
how can I show my gratitude?
I can only repay him in the world to come.


I like this very much. It reminds me of a film I saw last weekend from Brazil. A family of seven rides bicycles half-way across that huge country. At one point the mother confronts her son for stealing, because they were hungry and had been begging. She says, "We are poor and must ask for food, but we are still honest people."

That Louise Bogan is deep... a poet's poet. But I like her very much.

The Millay poem is great if you adore Beethoven's music.

I'm glad the power came back on. Our winds haven't started yet but the sky is a strange color and the tops of the trees are waving around.

Best,
Piffka

Dear Piffka,

The classical BEETHOVEN's symphonies were so welcomed by Millay! Good news! Because I appreciate BEETHOVEN so much! He is a real man in history!

Well, your orchard will still bear after 10 thousand years, because your ideas will grow luxuriantly, forever! Piffka!

Blimey! I didn't know Tao Yuanming would beg food! What a lucky beggar.

乞食

饥来驱我去，不知竟何之。
行行至斯里，叩门拙言辞。
主人解余意，遗赠岂虚来。
谈谐终日夕，觞至辄倾杯。
情欣新知欢，言咏遂赋诗。
感子漂母意，愧我非韩才。
衔戢知何谢，冥报以相贻。

Luise Bogan, the American poet whose subtle, spare works are metaphysical in tone. Usually, metaphysical stuff make things deep. But I hope there are not too much metaphysical thingy. I prefer realistic style.

Best,
Oristar