7
   

Michael Moore on the Election

 
 
giujohn
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 01:45 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Still no link, and Contrex has nailed why. You just can't debate anything honestly because the facts are all against you.

What... I'm your secretary or something find your own link I gave you the source should be an easy case for you to find it... But then again you don't really want to find a do you?
giujohn
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 01:48 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Weapons were fired on 6 occasions. I see you left that part out.

Yeah there seems to be a problem with the armed police officers in the UK being afraid to actually use deadly force... they seem to be afraid of the level of scrutiny they will encounter after they use that Force... The loss of their job... Possible prosecution and jail time... and the disruption to their life... Based on the extremely restrictive rules of Engagement.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 01:49 pm
@izzythepush,
Truly amazing difference in our countries' police enforcement behaviors.

I do realize that part of the difference is the police here are facing a populace loaded with their own guns, non-criminals and criminals alike.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 02:36 pm
@Setanta,
All of the politically superstitious members on a2k need a copy of the Constitution. Mr Kahn had it right; many like Trump don't understand the laws of this country.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 02:41 pm
Seems to me I saw a post incorrectly stating how the president can only nominate jurists but does not have the power to appoint them... Apparently this person hasn't really read the Constitution the president according to the Constitution does nominate the jurist but then appoints the jurist after seeking advice and consent from Congress so in effect Congress does not appoint the jurist they only advise and consent on the nomination. Further there seems to be some argument that if Congress does not advise and consent on the nomination the president may be able to appoint the jurist under what he would consider a waiver by Congress for not holding hearings on the nominee. The person who posted giving the history lesson and explaining the
Constitution apparently also forgot about a recess appointment. Considering Obama's proclivity to do end runs around the Congress when he disagrees with them and Hillary's statement that she disagrees with the Court's decision on the Second Amendment and will do anything she can to change that... It seems very likely that she would try this particular tact.
I also saw a post where someone asks for proof that Hillary would like to dismantle the Second Amendment why are for the following:

BY: Alana Goodman and Stephen Gutowski
October 1, 2015 12:00 pm

Hillary Clinton slammed the Supreme Court as “wrong on the Second Amendment” and called for reinstating the assault weapons ban during a small private fundraiser in New York last week, according to audio of her remarks obtained by the Washington Free Beacon.

While Clinton has previously supported an assault weapons ban, this is the first time since launching her campaign that she indicated that she would take on the Supreme Court over gun issues.

Although Clinton did not identify which Supreme Court case she disagreed with, she appeared to be criticizing the landmark 2008 ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller, which found the handgun ban in Washington, D.C., unconstitutional.

“I was proud when my husband took [the National Rifle Association] on, and we were able to ban assault weapons.

“We’ve got to go after this,” Clinton continued. “And here again, the Supreme Court is wrong on the Second Amendment. And I am going to make that case every chance I get.”

“I’m going to speak out, I’m going to do everything I can to rally people against this pernicious, corrupting influence of the NRA and we’re going to do whatever we can,” she said.




cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 02:46 pm
@giujohn,
http://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/trump-distorts-clintons-gun-stance/
giujohn
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 02:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm more interested in what Hillary says when she doesn't think she's being recorded as opposed to the tripe she's trying to feed the American public in order to get into office. Thank you very much.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 02:57 pm
@giujohn,
You make a claim you need to support it. That's how it works. You cannot debate the facts, and your claims are pure garbage.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 02:59 pm
@giujohn,
The only one talking tripe is you. Post after post of unsubstantiated garbage that only a pinhead would believe.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 03:06 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You make a claim you need to support it. That's how it works. You cannot debate the facts, and your claims are pure garbage.

You asked for the source so I gave it to you if you don't know how to find something on the internet you can contact me in private and I'll give you a lesson.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 03:30 pm
@giujohn,
I see . . . so you don't know what the word consent means, huh?

The president does not seek the consent of the Congress, but rather of the Senate. All senators are members of the Congress, but not all members of the Congress are senators. So we have more evidence of your appalling ignorance of the constitution and how your government works. Here are paragraphs two and three of section two of Article Two of the constitution, which deals with the powers of the executive.

He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.

The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.


The only type of appointment the president can make without the consent of the Senate (not the entire Congress) is a recess appointment, which is temporary, and which expires at the end of the next session of the Congress sitting. But the president has not appointed anyone, he or she has only granted a temporary commission (see paragraph three, section two, Article Two, above). Were the president to nominate someone to fill that vacancy at the beginning of the next session, and the Senate consents to the appointment, the recess appoint expires. If you had ever actually read the constitution and made an effort to understand it, rather than just rushing off to find some conservative web site which claims to explain the document, you might be worth debating. But you haven't and you aren't.
giujohn
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 03:53 pm
@Setanta,
And apparently you don't know what the meaning of "shall" is...

..."shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court..."

And by your very admission the word Congress includes the Senate... your pedantism is not lost on me...

You did not address the following:

And if the president determines that if the Congress by not giving advice or consent has in effect waved their duty to do so the president shall be able to under the Constitution appoint the jurist.

Your initial argument was that the president does not appoint he only nominates. You've proved yourself Wrong by citing the Constitution where it says that he does appoint.


The Constitutional question is: does the president need to adhere to the advice and consent of the Congress in order to make the appointment... I see nothing in the Constitution that compells him to do so.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 05:49 pm
It is just incredible how you parade your ignorance and your incomprehension.

. . . he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, . . .

Not the advice and consent of the Congress, but only the Senate. You do know that the Congress means the House and the Senate, right? You don't act as though you understand the distinction. The creation of the Senate and the vesting of the Senate with special powers was one part of a two-part compromise to assure the small states, in terms of population, that they would not be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the large states. The other part was the creation of the institution of the Electoral College. Really, you babble on, providing things which you say i have not responded to, and they are not a part of the language of the constitution. I have provided you the relevant passages of the constitution, and you still come up with some nonsense, which i suspect you've gotten from some teabagger web site. You are not using the actual language of the constitution, which you claim to be worried about.

What you really need to do, before puking up the kind of drivel you've posted in this thread, is to actually read the constitution, and try to understand it--although i don't have much hope of that. No part of the constitution was written idly, it all matters and it all describes in detail how the government is intended to operate. You demonstrate again and again that you don't have a clue about it. As long as you're babbling about something which is not a part of the constitution itself, that's all you're doing--babbling.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 05:53 pm
So, once again, neither Mrs. Clinton nor Mr. Trump can appoint Federal judges or justices of the Supreme Court on their own authority, but must secure the consent of the Senate.
giujohn
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 06:24 pm
@Setanta,
And once again you have not answered the question what happens if the president decides that because the Senate refuses to give their advice or consent considers that it is a waiver and decides to make his own appointment without them?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 06:41 pm
@giujohn,
The president can't do that.

Read the f*cking constitution before you shoot off your mouth again. I'm not going to waste any more time on you.
giujohn
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 09:28 pm
@Setanta,
The president can't do that? Yeah, and the president's not supposed to make legislation by Fiat either, but he did.
Blickers
 
  3  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 09:34 pm
@giujohn,
More conservative mythology. Just because you want Obama impeached for getting up in the morning and coming to work doesn't mean he's done anything illegal. The conservatives started out with accusing the Clintons of having 30 people murdered-yes, many conservatives still believe that-and just get farther and farther into the ozone as years go by. No president has done what you say, and since they're mostly lawyers they sure would have tried if they thought they could get away with it.
giujohn
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:08 pm
@Blickers,
Well actually he did do that with his immigration plan and it was just recently blocked by the Supreme Court
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 10:58 pm
A president of any party can do whatever he or she wants, regardless, of what the Constitution states, if he or she holds the reigns of executive power at the same time that there is either a supportive or weak and compliant legislature. Our system in such an instance relies heavily upon the judicial branch to exercise its power and roll back the excesses of such a president, but it wouldn't happen immediately. The Supreme Court is not going to instruct a bailiff or "army" of bailiff's to bring the president before them either willingly or in handcuffs.

Our current president, thought by many to be a "constitutional law scholar" told various audiences on more than 20 separate occasions that the Constitution didn't provide him with the power to make what would amount to unilateral changes to our immigration laws either through interpretation or lack of enforcement. A number of these occasions involved appearences by the president on Univision and Telemundo and interviews by the, if nothing else, dogged Jorge Ramos who repeatedly asked Mr. Obama why he had not delivered on his campaign promises of immigration reform.

In October of 2010 he told Univision:

Quote:
“My cabinet has been working very hard on trying to get it done, but ultimately, I think somebody said the other day, I am president, I am not king,”


In March of 2011 he told Univision:

Quote:
"America is a nation of laws, which means I, as the President, am obligated to enforce the law. I don't have a choice about that. That's part of my job. But I can advocate for changes in the law so that we have a country that is both respectful of the law but also continues to be a great nation of immigrants. … With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that’s just not the case, because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed …. [W]e’ve got three branches of government. Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws. There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system that for me to simply through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President.”


And

Quote:
“I swore an oath to uphold the laws on the books …. Now, I know some people want me to bypass Congress and change the laws on my own. Believe me, the idea of doing things on my own is very tempting. I promise you. Not just on immigration reform. But that's not how our system works. That’s not how our democracy functions. That's not how our Constitution is written.”


In January of 2013, he told Telemundo the following; correctly reiterating that he was not a king.

“I’m not a king. My job as the head of the executive branch ultimately is to carry out the law. When it comes to enforcement of our immigration laws, we’ve got some discretion. We can prioritize what we do. But we can’t simply ignore the law.”

In February of 2013 he was again pressed by Telemundo on the issue and again explained that he was not a king:

Quote:
“I can’t do these things just by myself. I’m not a king.”


However, in November 2014 he signaled that it was his intention to address immigration reform through the power and means granted to him as the nation's chief executive.

When reminded by reporters of the numerous times he had publicly stated that he didn't have the authority to make unilateral changes to our immigration laws, and asked how and why his position had changed.

His disingenuous response, which might have been truly stunning if it wasn't predictable in terms of politicians in general and him in particular, was:

Quote:
"Actually, my position hasn’t changed. When I was talking to the advocates, their interest was in me, through executive action, duplicating the legislation that was stalled in Congress"


What was stunning, at least to me, was that the NY Times, the Washington Post and FactCheck.org not only didn't give him a pass on his flip-flop or lie (your choice), they called him out on it:

The Times wrote:

Quote:
“In fact, most of the questions that were posed to the president over the past several years were about the very thing that he is expected to announce within a matter of days.",


WaPo's fact checker came to the same conclusion and awarded him the Upside-Down Pinocchio, reserved for "major-league flip flops," and wrote:

Quote:
“The questions (which repeatedly prompted the I'm not a king response) actually specifically addressed the sorts of actions that he is contemplating now...”


As we have seen, apparently the judiciary, upon being called into action to address the excesses of a companion branch of our government preferred the reasoning of the constitutional law scholar who had a second term to win and then slog through, to that of the professional politician who as his own greatest admirer had a legacy to attend to .

I suppose an argument can be made that we should view this with comfort and satisfaction that the relatively slow, but measured system of checks and balances works as intended.

However, such comfort and/or satisfaction would miss the fact that the Supreme Court's decision that effectively upheld the ruling of a lower court which affirmed that the president of the United States is not a king, was a result of a tie, and the fortuitous intervention of procedure which effectively translates a tie in the highest court as affirmation of the lower court's decision. I'm sure some will argue it does no such thing, but however one wishes to view it, the result is the same: The lower court's ruling that our current Chief Executive and Commander in Chief is President Obama and not King Barrack.

It's difficult to imagine how the liberal justices found it possible to find a distinction that even the NY Times and Washington Post essentially ridiculed, but perhaps as the real constitutional law scholars, they weren't impressed by the legal reasoning of Professor Obama, pronounced and explained 22 times in public.

In these unfortunate and divisive times constitutional crises are not likely to find a largely united front consisting of one or both branches remaining in sync with their oaths, a press that is able to even recognize their biases, let alone put them aside when discharging their crucial responsibility, and a citizenry who seem less concerned about the health and future of the nation, than whether or not their side wins.

I anticipate some push-back from those who believe that Obama's plan to do an end run on Congress and overstep the limits imposed on him by the Constitution can't, in any way, be considered a constitutional crisis. However, I also anticipate any such voices to, largely, belong to the very sort of citizens, I've described herein, the ones who too often minimize lies and accept the deceit of political leaders in which they have invested a major component of their identity. When their politicians win, their ideology wins and, more importantly, they win. For a smaller group it is not only vitally important that they win (and by any means necessary, if necessary), but it is of an equal if not greater imperative, that the other side loses.

It's a distorted focus that isn't only an affliction of Democrats and liberals. I not only see it manifest itself in the willingness of friends and acquaintents to minimize the deep flaws of Donald Trump, for the much anticipated and desired fall of Hillary Clinton, I'll freely admit that it's not been easy for me to resist that pull, and that more than once I've found myself starting down that road. However none of us have to go down that road and if we at all recognize it's there calling to us, then shame on any of us who follow it.

The notion of an acceptable lesser of two evils is, to begin with, unsupportable. Once someone earns the label of "evil" (and I use the word in the context of how the phrase is commonly employed not, necessarily, as a descriptor for a person of malevolence) they shouldn't be acceptable, under any circumstance.

Now if you insist that your support for Trump or Clinton is based on the sincere belief that they are worthy of the office and will make good president (and not just that they will make a marginally better president than the other) then go ahead and vote for them with a clear conscious. I, obviously, strongly question your judgment and disagree with you, but either I'm completely wrong (always a decent bet) or you have completely deluded yourself.

If, however, you are a Republican who is voting for Trump or a Democrat voting for Clinton because even though you recognize the deep and serious flaws they have, you're going to go with the "lessor of two evils" I would hope you keep rolling that around in your head; that you keep gnawing on that bone.

There is an entirely principled alternative. Don't vote for either of them.
Vote for a minor party candidate who you can feel proud about supporting even though there is no reason to belief for one minute that they can win. You will not be throwing away your vote.

The people who tell you this are either delusional or have decided, for whatever reason, to dance with their party's devil, and they desperately want their devil to win.

The same goes for the false argument that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for Donald Trump or a write-in vote Mitch Daniels, or any politician you respect, is a vote for Hillary Clinton. It most certainly isn't. It's a vote for someone who you sincerely believe will make a good leader of our country, and not just the least evil one.

The one thing you shouldn't do is stay home and not vote, because this is throwing away your vote.

If you don't vote you've not registered your displeasure. You are counted no differently from those who don't vote because they're too lazy or drunk or apathetic to give a damn. You sure as hell won't be making any sort of statement.

If on the other hand, if you vote for Jill Stein, Gary Johnson, Paul Ryan, Bernie Sanders or anyone other than these two unworthy and unqualified candidates, you will be making a strong statement, and neither the parties nor the media will be able to mistake your refusal to accept corrupt and utterly selfish candidates, as disinterest or or laziness.

Enough votes for someone other than these two could be a deciding factor in who wins, and this could mean you end up with a president who is marginally less evil than the other, but there's a good chance that it really will make a difference beyond 2016.

The party that wins is likely to be too drunk with victory to worry much about the quality of their winner, but the one that loses will have to. It will have to take a good hard look at who they put out there and why it was they lost. And, I feel certain, by the time 2020 rolls around the winning party will be facing a failed president running for re-election, with primary challenges up the wazoo and then they will have to take a hard look at who they put out there and why they are likely to lose their bid for re-election.

One thing seems very certain to me, and that is if you are truly discouraged and depressed about the state of politics in this country, voting for the lesser of two evils will perpetuate what you can't stand. Both parties will assume that "revolutions" against the Establishment are a pain in the ass, and make things harder to control, but in the end they fade out and the "rebels" get in line.
 

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