The New State Religion: Atheism

@Walter Hinteler,

I don't think "passing" is a good word for values and beliefs. I don't even think "transferring" is very good.

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@Walter Hinteler,

How about

Quote:

Every society survives by indoctrinating the next generation with their beliefs and values

?

Surely German parents of every religion pass German values and beliefs to their children. The religions of German have all adapted to promote Western cultural values (the religions of previous centuries in Germany have promoted different values than they do now.)

Am I wrong that Germans have much the same views on marriage, slavery, democracy, gender roles and human rights no matter whether they are Catholic, Protestant or non-religious?

There is a German secular religion that, for the most part, supersedes the other religions.

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@maxdancona,

From the net:
Religion in Germany – Christianity. About 65% to 70% of the population are followers of the Christian religion in Germany. They are more or less evenly split between the mainstream denominations of Lutheran-Protestantism and Calvinism united in the EKD (Evangelical Church in Germany) and the Roman Catholic Church.
Religion in Germany | InterNations.org
https://www.internations.org/germany-expats/guide/.../religion-in-germany-16010

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

So you agree that what I described is indoctrination. And I'm guessing that you realize that millions of Christians do exactly what I described. So you agree that it's commonplace for Christians to indoctrinate children.

The literal and true meaning of 'Christian' is Christ like. Since everything I know about Christ tells me that he would never do that, then obviously those people are not Christians, their profession of being one notwithstanding.

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@maxdancona,

Of course religious beliefs in fluence culture and society.

(The ruling of the Augsburg Peace from 1555 is still seen in Germany [within the borders of the Roman Empire of that time] today: cuius regio, eius religio is the reason, why we have got predominately Catholic and Evangelical/Protestant regions here.)

maxdancona wrote:

The religions of German have all adapted to promote Western cultural values

I don't think that the two "main Churches" here (Catholic Church and Evangelical Church of Germany [roughly 70% of the population belong to these two] have adopted Western culture values.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

I don't think that the two "main Churches" here (Catholic Church and Evangelical Church of Germany [roughly 70% of the population belong to these two] have adopted Western culture values.

Really? In the past, many (if not most) cultures have had views very different than the Western cultural views on these topics...

- The evilness of slavery
- That love should be voluntary and that people should pick their own mates.
- That democracy is better than Monarchy.
- That woman should have political rights and property rights.
- That children of any class should be protected from abuse and not made to work.

People living in what is now called Germany had very different values from Modern Western values on each of these topics in times past. Now it seems that Germans of any or no religion are on the same page.

If they didn't "adopt" Modern Western cultural values... how did they acquire them?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Really? In the past, many (if not most) cultures have had views very different than the Western cultural views on these topics...

Obviously I don't know what you call "Western culture", where it is to be found, who invented it and when.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

- That democracy is better than Monarchy.

We have a couple of monarchies in Europe. We think that these countries are democracies.

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@Walter Hinteler,

I was born and reared in Sacramento, and learned a few years ago that Germans were also in our city during the gold rush. One German, whose name I forgot, became rich from gold, and was the person who paid for the dig at Troy. I know his name started with an S. Anyone?

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@cicerone imposter,

Heinrich Schliemann - a bit of his reports of his time in California can be read online @ google-books: Schliemann and the California Gold Rush: The 1850-1852 American travel journal of Heinrich Schliemann: a transcription and translation

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@Walter Hinteler,

Of coarse, Schliemann. Thanks.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Do you deny that cultural values... in terms of values and moral beliefs... are exceptionally similar across a great number of countries throughout Europe and North America?

We are culturally very homogeneous... particularly when compared to the cultures we replaced.

You are missing the point about monarchy. Four hundred years ago the monarchs in Europe wielded a lot of political power, and most people accepted this. Obedience to the Monarch was the definition of being a good citizen. Now the idea of a European Monarch exerting real political power is offensive to most people living in either North America or Western Europe (please correct me if I am wrong).

Things have changed. Cultural and moral values are very similar throughout Europe and North America.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

We all pass down our beliefs and values to our children. I agree with you that what Christians do is indoctrination. The question I am asking is is how is this any different what secular Atheists do?

Every society survives by passing values and beliefs to the next generation. Without indoctrination the society dies.

As far as I know nobody threatens children with eternal damnation if they are not atheist in their views. And nobody threatens children with cultural of familial isolation if they do not know the scientific methodology. Those two things alone should be a significant difference in indoctrinal behavior.

I would also point out that you cannot widen the definition of "indoctrination" to the point where it is synonymous with"cultural exposure" or you have destroyed the basic meaning of the term.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
So you agree that what I described is indoctrination. And I'm guessing that you realize that millions of Christians do exactly what I described. So you agree that it's commonplace for Christians to indoctrinate children.

The literal and true meaning of 'Christian' is Christ like. Since everything I know about Christ tells me that he would never do that, then obviously those people are not Christians, their profession of being one notwithstanding.

So your answer to the challenge of indoctrination by people who call themselves Christian, is to redefine Christianity in such a way that any behavior you don't agree with (Indoctrination in this case) is not "Christian".

I've seen this form of apologetic before and it's just a way of obfuscating the obvious and burying your head in the sand.

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@rosborne979,

Let's imagine that your children chose to reject what you have taught them, and decide to put on a completely different set of cultural values. Would you accept this... or would you attempt to scare them away from their choices with dire warnings and threats of familial isolation.

Let's imagine one of your daughters has decided to be a part of the FLDS church. She wants to be a sister wife in a polygamist marriage and devote her life to serving God. Now let me remind you that polygamy as part of religious devotion has been part of many religions from ancient Judaism to Asian cultures to indigenous American religions.

The problem here is that you believe that your cultural beliefs are the one true set of cultural beliefs. We are less willing to accept other cultural beliefs then we are willing to admit. If you are honest with yourself, you are no more willing to go against your cultural beliefs than any other religious person.

That is how indoctrination works.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

You are missing the point about monarchy.

I didn't. I was responding to what you wrote and I quoted.

But again back to my question about "Western Culture".
When did we Europeans/Germans accept that? From whom?

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

We are culturally very homogeneous... particularly when compared to the cultures we replaced.

Who is "we" here? And what cultures were replaced when?

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@maxdancona,

No Max, I wouldn't attempt to scare my daughter away from anything. But I would certainly offer her my opinion on her choice and I would back up my own understanding with good evidence. But if after that she decides to do something else then that's up to her (assuming she is no longer a child).

And I understand the point you're trying to make about our own accepted cultural beliefs being ingrained into us as "acceptable" behaviors. But I still differentiate between this and clear "Indoctrination". Hopefully you can see the difference.

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@rosborne979,

No, I believe there is any difference between "ingraining" and "indoctrination". Other than stating that our culture does one, and other cultures/religions do the other, no one has suggested any difference between the two.

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@maxdancona,

When I turned 14, my asked me, if I wanted to change my religion - which he strongly didn't want.
But even more than 50 years ago he would have accepted that (Legally, he had not other choice, but that's not my point here).

1 Reply

The New State Religion: Atheism

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