Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 07:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Most of us humans aren't that 'lucky.'
As every pilot worth his wings will tell you in a dead pan voice:

'Luck was not a factor, sir.'
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 08:04 pm
@Leadfoot,
Yeah, and any landing you can walk away from is a good landing.


If you can use the plane again, it was a great plane.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 10:02 pm
@roger,
Quote:
Yeah, and any landing you can walk away from is a good landing.
Just to prove it isn't all luck, there was at least one I didn't..
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 10:04 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Yeah, and any landing you can walk away from is a good landing.
Just to prove it isn't all luck, there was at least one I didn't..

Usually when someone says a pilot didn't walk away from a landing it means he was killed.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 10:06 pm
@snood,
Sometimes it just means they were carried away.
The missing man formation flyover was not necessary.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 10:58 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
If something works, whether you call it faith or individual resonance matters not. It can be reasoned out whether it is coincidence or not.


Something based on faith, as Finn defines it, cannot be reasoned out. Feelings are not reason.

Leadfoot wrote:
If your faith leads you to the right answer 10 times in a row to something you could not have otherwise known, Reason will tell you it isn't coincidence.


Reason will tell you to be highly skeptical about your conclusions. I'd like to see your assertion put to the test.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Jun, 2016 11:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You worship the so called "objective."


That's an erroneous assumption that is irrelevant to this argument.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
You still haven't demonstrated why a complex decision that incorporated the subjective or "resonance" is a "poor" process.

You just keep saying that it's poor because it lacks what you worship.


I'm not trying to demonstrate why a complex decision that incorporates the subjective or "resonance" is a poor process. I've explained that faith is a poor basis upon which to act because it lacks objectivity, i.e facts, evidence, data, etc.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The rest of your response, to me, is incoherent


It figures.
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 09:42 am
The concept that faith is blind, unsupported by evidence or data is in my honest opinion a nonsensical argument. How is a man convinced to believe something without receiving data sufficient to the individual to support its truth?
Faith is the fabric that covers the gaps between evidence, and something we all have as human beings. Knowledge, understanding and perception provides momentum to span these gaps.
In science, you take data, identify trends and create a theory, and continue to collect data to verify that theory, something which until proven or otherwise, you rely on the momentum of the data you have to span the gaps between. For those who build faith, the important thing is that you are intellectually honest enough to accept the gaps are there, and have a degree of understanding as to how wide they may be.
I appreciate that what constitutes evidence is defined by he who accepts it, so I guess we put it down to perception, but I find the expression of "faith" as something completely unsupported by anything other than emotion and makebelieve to be nonsensical and often used as an attempt to belittle those who are on the other side of the debate.
[/rant] Smile

By way of disclaimer Please note that I do not defend those who may be considered credulous, for while I would assert that gullibility is not intrinsic with faith, that is not to say that there are not those that embrace both wholeheartedly
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 09:55 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
Since faith is based on individual resonance it's a poor basis on which to act because it lacks objectivity.
Absence of epistemological certainty does not equal lack of objectivity.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
. . . If you base a decision on something you read by a learned scholar, or scientist unless he or she has zero refutation on the given conclusion, (and even then it's not a guarantee of being correct) you've made a subjective decision. . .
Point well taken.
One good reason to eschew outside links.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:08 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
"If your faith leads you to the right answer 10 times in a row to something you could not have otherwise known, Reason will tell you it isn't coincidence."


Reason will tell you to be highly skeptical about your conclusions. I'd like to see your assertion put to the test
Everyone has the means to do just that. Be as skeptical as you like but unless you put it to the test, you will never know.

It goes without saying that someone else's test will not be sufficient for anyone else so I will not offer my own test as an example but FWIW, it's worked consistently for over 60 years.

You could say that my test was a self fulfilling prophesy or that my own expectations determined the outcome but that isn't how it happened. The answers I got were far far away from what I expected. And ultimately so much better too.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:12 am
@InfraBlue,
"Worship" = the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Substitute "deity" with "objectivity" and this is you.

"You" wrote:
I'm not trying to demonstrate why a complex decision that incorporates the subjective or "resonance" is a poor process.


Because you are finding it very difficult to do. Is your whole argument based on simplistic notions?

Seems to be so.

Quote:
It figures (that I find most of your argument incoherent).


Why?

Because I have demonstrated over and over in the past that I am unable to understand your brilliant arguments?

Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:15 am
@Smileyrius,
Indeed

Our brains are hard-wired by evolution for leaps of intuitive conclusions. The notion that these are all silly imaginings is absurd.

Despite what the anti-faith contingent here would have us believe, none of us (including them) operates in life the way a machine would.

Because they worship objectivity, anything smacking of subjectivity is heresy.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:22 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn wrote:
. . .Because they worship objectivity, anything smacking of subjectivity is heresy.
Heh, heh.
We should never forget the brain has a mind of it's own.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:35 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Finn wrote:
. . .Because they worship objectivity, anything smacking of subjectivity is heresy.
Heh, heh.
We should never forget the brain has a mind of it's own.

I think that sounds a little schizo... and I think so, too.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jun, 2016 10:43 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Heh, heh.
We should never forget the brain has a mind of it's own.
Yep.

I tend to think of the brain as just the interface between us and our real mind. Science keeps trying to figure out how the brain does what it does, what is consciousness, etc, and it remains a mystery to them. It's like trying to figure out how all that information is in your iPhone when in fact it's the Internet it's connected to that actually has the data.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2016 11:58 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Since faith is based on individual resonance it's a poor basis on which to act because it lacks objectivity.
Absence of epistemological certainty does not equal lack of objectivity.


Ok.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 12:05 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

"Worship" = the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

Substitute "deity" with "objectivity" and this is you.


The addition of your definition doesn't make your assumption any less erroneous and irrelevant.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
I'm not trying to demonstrate why a complex decision that incorporates the subjective or "resonance" is a poor process.


Because you are finding it very difficult to do. Is your whole argument based on simplistic notions?Of course.

Seems to be so.


No, it's because it was never my intention to do so. Go drag your red herring somewhere else.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
It figures (that I find most of your argument incoherent).Of course.

Why?

Because I have demonstrated over and over in the past that I am unable to understand your brilliant arguments?


At least you understand that much.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 12:06 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
"If your faith leads you to the right answer 10 times in a row to something you could not have otherwise known, Reason will tell you it isn't coincidence."


Reason will tell you to be highly skeptical about your conclusions. I'd like to see your assertion put to the test
Everyone has the means to do just that. Be as skeptical as you like but unless you put it to the test, you will never know.

It goes without saying that someone else's test will not be sufficient for anyone else so I will not offer my own test as an example but FWIW, it's worked consistently for over 60 years.

You could say that my test was a self fulfilling prophesy or that my own expectations determined the outcome but that isn't how it happened. The answers I got were far far away from what I expected. And ultimately so much better too.

M-hmm...
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2016 08:50 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
M-hmm
When you can't succede with objectivity, snark always works.
 

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