Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth"

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With a bit of luck we won't be writing much more about these idiots. The past week has seen most of the organization's claims debunked and many of the members have thoroughly contradicted themselves. Not that you'd know it if you've been watching cable news. So let's do a quick recap of some of the week's more important stories:

Alfred French, who signed an affidavit accusing John Kerry of exaggerating his war record, is in trouble after it was revealed that he didn't serve with Kerry and did not actually witness his behavior in Vietnam. Lying in affidavits is obviously not a good idea when you're a county prosecutor. Oh yes, he also got caught lying about an extra-marital affair..

After Ken Cordier's departure from Team Bush (see Idiots 167) it was the turn of Benjamin Ginsberg to quit last week when it was revealed that not only was he a lawyer for George W. Bush's campaign, he was a lawyer for - surprise - Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. We hear the door did not hit him in the ass on the way out.

Jim Russell (who, unlike the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth," was actually there the day that Kerry pulled Jim Rassmann out of the river) composed a stirring letter contradicting their story. "The picture I have in my mind of Kerry bending over from his boat picking some hapless guy out of the river while all hell was breaking loose around us, is a picture based on fact and it cannot be disputed or changed," he wrote.

Larry Thurlow signed an affidavit accusing Kerry of lying about being under fire when he rescued Rassmann, saying "no return fire occurred.... I never heard a shot." This directly contradicts his own Bronze Star citation (see Idiots 167). But a third Bronze Star was awarded that day, to another Swift Boat skipper, Robert Lambert. Lambert's recently-released citation says that "all units came under small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks," and that Lambert "directed accurate suppressing fire at the enemy." The citation praises his "coolness, professionalism and courage under fire." Thurlow claims that Kerry faked the citations by falsely describing events to superior officers. But Kerry is not the eyewitness on Thurlow's citation - Lambert is. Can it be any more obvious that Thurlow is lying?

John O'Neill has been making a big stink lately over whether John Kerry was in Cambodia or not during the Vietnam War. It appears that nobody - including Kerry - is really sure. But O'Neill - as usual - made himself look like a complete ass by claiming to CNN that he (O'Neill) had never been in Cambodia and in fact it was impossible to cross the border by river. Whoops! It turns out that O'Neill appears on an audio tape recorded in the Oval Office telling the complete opposite to Richard Nixon. O'NEILL: "I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water." NIXON: "In a swift boat?" O'NEILL: "Yes, sir." Ah, credibility. We hardly knew ye.

Even George W. Bush admits John Kerry is a war hero, saying last week, "I think him [Kerry] going to Vietnam was more heroic than my flying fighter jets. He was in harm's way and I wasn't." So now it's clear that either George W. Bush or the Swift Boat Idiots are lying. One or the other. Who can it be?

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Bush is finally being a man and telling the truth. I swear to god that he has done that more in the last week than his entire time in office.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=6095318

Quote:

Bush Says Kerry 'More Heroic' for Going to Vietnam
Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:08 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush on Saturday described John Kerry's tour of duty in Vietnam as more heroic than his own service in the Air National Guard, saying his Democratic rival had been "in harm's way."
But the president told NBC's "Today" show that both sides should drop the debate over their wartime service, saying, "I think that we ought to move beyond the past. ... The real question is who best to lead us forward."

Asked if he believed that he and Kerry "served on the same level of heroism," Bush replied, "No, I don't. I think him going to Vietnam was more heroic than my flying fighter jets. He was in harm's way and I wasn't."

Excerpts of the interview, conducted on Saturday for broadcast on Monday, were released by NBC.

The president continued to defend his own service in the Air National Guard, saying, "On the other hand, I served my country. Had my unit been called up, I would have gone."

Kerry's war record in Vietnam has dominated the 2004 presidential campaign in recent weeks, after advertisements by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth accused him of lying about the events that led to his decoration for bravery.

The White House on Thursday said it would file a lawsuit to try to force the Federal Election Commission to crack down on the ads. Bush says he does not believe Kerry lied about his record, but he has refused to condemn the ads directly.

Kerry accuses the Bush campaign of colluding with the Swift Boat Veterans on the ads, a charge the White House has denied. But its case was hurt this past week when a top lawyer for the Bush campaign, Benjamin Ginsberg, resigned after disclosing he was providing legal advice to the veteran's group.

After Ginsburg's resignation, 50 percent of Americans said they believed the Bush campaign was behind the Swift Boat Veterans ads, according to a survey by the University of Pennsylvania's Annenberg Public Policy Center.

Pollster Adam Clymer said Ginsburg's resignation heightened the belief that the Bush campaign had supported the ads, but the controversy could fade from public view when the Republican National Convention begins next week.

Federal election rules bar organizations that take unrestricted donations from coordinating their activities with campaigns or political parties.

The issue has also caused tension with Republican Sen. John McCain, another Vietnam veteran and influential lawmaker who has urged Bush to condemn the ads and get them halted.

McCain is backing Bush for the White House, but the Arizona senator has defended his friend Kerry and threatened to raise the issue with Bush when they campaign in Iowa next week.

For all those people who claimed that Bush was in harm's way flying jets,

We have the truth straight from the horse's ass. Er. Mouth.

Cycloptichorn

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who can it be?

most excellent song :wink:

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You left out one very possible and IMO probable choice. Both the vets and Kerry are liars. Or if not liars, both are suffering from faulty memories.

Oh, and not to split hairs or anything, but Bush never said Kerry was not lying about aspects of his service, only that he served in harm's way. So technically, Bush and the SBV's could be telling the truth. Smile

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It should be no surprise to anyone that both Bush and Cheney are working hard appealing to the more moderate wing of the Republican party. Cheney talks about his daughter, homosexuality and gay rights like he was practically a liberal, and Bush finally is forced to describe Kerry's service in Vietnam as "heroic," if only to try and further quell any criticisms about his own service in the National Guard.

And so it's up to John McCain to state how utterly o.k. it is to criticize John Kerry's comments after his service in Vietnam in 1971. Problem is, as Mr. McCain lashes out against the Swift Boat Vets for opening up old wounds, he is now endorsing those who would question Kerry's comments back in 1971, who are, in essence, OPENING UP OLD WOUNDS.

And so the hypocrisy continues unabated...

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Heh. By your logic, then, if Kerry lied about his accomplishments, and STILL was more heroic than Bush, what does that say about Bush?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Heh. By your logic, then, if Kerry lied about his accomplishments, and STILL was more heroic than Bush, what does that say about Bush?

Cycloptichorn

Cy, I made my comment based on Dookie's statement at the end of the post that based on what GWB said, either he or the Swift Boat vets were lying. All I am pointing out is the fallacy in that statement, since what Bush said and what they claim are not mutually exclusive.

Also, to be exact, Bush said nothing about his service there. The statement according to Dookie is that "going to vietnam" is more heroic than Bush's service. I would totally agree. I always have. I would say that if it is Kerry only who is lying about his service activities there that he would be less heroic, but still does not diminish the fact that he went.

Does that help explain my logic? I hope so.

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Yeah, I was just being facetious.

But, Bush did directly state that his service did not put him in harms' way.

Cycloptichorn

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Swift Vet's contradictions a result of "faulty memories

Quote:

You left out one very possible and IMO probable choice. Both the vets and Kerry are liars. Or if not liars, both are suffering from faulty memories.

Well, according to John O'Neil, Kerry ran away scared everytime he was attacked, knocked Mr. Rassman off the boat before turning around to go pick him up, and lied about every one of his medals.

Oh, and also that he WASN'T in Cambodia, despite the fact that John O'Neil said that he himself WAS in Cambodia when he had a face to face meeting with Nixon back in 1971.

Unfortunately for many Vietnam vets, the wounds are now wide open again, and their blood is pooring into the streets of hypocrisy and dirty politics. Such petty criticism of whether Kerry WAS or WAS NOT in Cambodia, and WHEN he WAS or WAS NOT in Cambodia, do not add one ounce of substance to the issues facing us today.

This is sick, and it should end now.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yeah, I was just being facetious.

But, Bush did directly state that his service did not put him in harms' way.

Cycloptichorn

Sorry, I have this terrible habit of missing facetiousness. (Is that a word?) Ah well.

And yes, Bush did say he was not in harm's way. And he wasn't, so it was probably a smart thing to say. :wink:

Dookie, while I think it is rather pointless for us here to argue about it, I do think it is important that the vet's who are against Kerry have been heard. It has become obvious to many (probably mostly republicans) that Kerry has not been truthful about some of his service activities (at least according to these vets). And quite frankly, I do believe this is important info for people to digest as part of their decision making process on who to vote for. But that said, I think both Kerry and Bush would do well to leave vietnam behind and start talking about what they have done lately and what they intend to do if elected in November.

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Toss a coin.

Kerry:

Not in Cambodia on Xmas, a story he repeated over 50 times.

The flying dog story he told about a mine going off under his boat catapulting a dog into another boat. There is no record of a mine under his boat at any time.

Rassman has told two different stories of his rescue, and Kerry's wasn't exactly true.

Kerry told the srory about being in Nam when MLK was killed.

Etc. etc.

Nobody has their stories straight there, but it's clear Kerry told stories that were self serving to his political career, an opportunist all the way.

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The message changes.

First, it's 'Kerry is a damn liar!'
Then, it's 'Kerry is lying about some things.'
Now, it's 'Clear that Kerry tells stories that are self-serving to politics.'

Just like

'Iraq has WMD, we are positive of this'
To
'Iraq has WMD programs, we are positive of this'
To
'Iraq has WMD program-related activities, we are positive of this'

Can't win? Change your story. It's the republican way.

Cycloptichorn

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Hang around, tomorrow it'll be something different.

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Bar complaint
Oregon bar fielding complaints against attorney

PORTLAND, Ore. - A county prosecutor who appeared in an ad criticizing Sen. John Kerry's war record has become the target of complaints to the Oregon Bar Association, alleging he made misleading statements in a sworn affidavit.

The bar has received 28 complaints in three days against Assistant Clackamas County District Attorney Al French, bar spokeswoman Kateri Walsh said.

French, a 20-year employee of the DA's office, appeared in the ad sponsored by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

The ad stopped airing a week ago but remains a hot-button issue in the presidential campaign. It accuses Kerry of lying about his actions in Vietnam and the medals he was awarded for those actions.

In the spot, French says: "I served with John Kerry. ... He is lying about his record."

Before filming the ad, French signed a sworn affidavit asserting that Kerry received his Purple Heart medals "from negligently self-inflicted wounds in the absence of hostile fire."

In an interview with The Oregonian newspaper last week, French said he relied on secondhand accounts in making the statement, and had not personally witnessed Kerry in action.

That formed the basis of several of the complaints filed by fellow attorneys, some of whom noted in their letters that their objections were not motivated by politics.

"I encourage you to consider whether any rules were violated when Mr. French, by his own admission, appeared at least to misrepresent the truth when he swore under oath to facts of which he had no personal knowledge," wrote attorney Doug Sandstrom in one complaint.

"A fundamental requirement of (an affidavit) is that the affiant have personal knowledge of the matters therein related," Newport attorney David M. Gordon wrote in another.

If the complaints are found to have merit, French could face a public reprimand, or a suspension or loss of his law license, Walsh said. . . .

http://www.katu.com/printstory.asp?ID=70477

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Hey Dookiestix, have you been here yet?: Debunking SBVFT

You'll find much more debunkings of SVFT claims there ... welcome to A2K, btw.

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nimh:

Much obliged and glad to be here. I'm looking forward to a much more civil discourse with the righties than what Abuzz.com offered, which is shutting down September 2nd due to lack of funding and/or maintenance. This format will take a little getting used to, but so far, it's been really great.

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Yeah - lots of former Abuzz people here. I spend a lot of time on Abuzz myself, in 2000-2002. We all know about it finally going off-air ... its sad ... perhaps you'd like to visit this thread here and share some memories ...

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Its getting closer, now 8 votes for Kerry, 4 against him. I say four because the two for Bush must mean that since he said Kerry should be proud of his service, it is that about which he must be lying.

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Quote:

I think both Kerry and Bush would do well to leave vietnam behind and start talking about what they have done lately and what they intend to do if elected in November.

Then let's hope that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth will pay heed to that recommendation and start addressing the issues, rather than refuted heresay and false affadavits designed to demonize a Democratic candidate who went to Vietnam and served his country honorably.

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Apparently they do not believe that he did.

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Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth"

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