14
   

Pants: women should not wear them

 
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 04:54 pm
@Glennn,
As a White person, given the sad history of White people's subjugation of indigenous African cultures, I have a great deal of humility when it comes to cultural differences. I find it deeply troubling for any White person to declare that a cultural practice from an indigenous culture is "barbaric". The word "barbaric" has been used historically by a dominant culture to subjugate a weaker culture... including in Africa.

I was born in the US. Since day one I have been taught about American values. I learned right and wrong from my American parents. I went to school and learned American values and an American way of thinking. I was surrounded by kids who were also American with an American world view.

I can not deny the fact that this upbringing dramatically impacts what I believe, my sense of right and wrong and my way of looking at moral issues.

And I also know from listening to and even meeting people from other cultures that human being who were brought up in other cultures have different sets of values and beliefs. And, at times, these cultural differences are drastically different. So here we are with the most extreme case we can find... the cutting off of a girls clitoris. This is an example where Americans (and White people in general) find a practice "barbaric" that African cultures feel is important.

How do we resolve this situation? It seems to me that you are saying "it is wrong because I know it is wrong". You are not accepting the fact that what Americans know is wrong is different from what people in these indigenous African cultures know is wrong. You have not acknowledge the fact that these African women are as intelligent as you. Their beliefs are as heartfelt as yours are. And their opinions about what is best for their daughters are at least as valid as your opinions.

This takes humility. And given what White people have done to Africa, a great deal of humility is owed to the people that we are now condemning.



Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 07:08 pm
@maxdancona,
You are attempting to justify cutting off the clitoris of little girls by bringing up crimes against Africa. That doesn't make any sense at all. Also, I am not declaring all of their cultural practices barbaric; only the one that calls for the cutting off of the clitoris of little girls.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 07:26 pm
@Glennn,
The issue is the imposition of White European cultural values onto African cultures. I am not justifying anything. I am only pointing out that cultures have different values and you have every right to act in your own culture.

When you try to tell people in other cultures what to do, even in matters as serious as cutting off the clitoris of little girls, you run into problems. This is especially true when you are White and the culture in question is a culture that is still reeling from the fact it was subjugated by White people.

Of course, the example of female circumcision is only one example. You chose this example because it is at the extreme end of things.

There are plenty of other examples where we judge practices in other cultures using American cultural standards.

I forget who first pointed out the common problem that occurs when White people try to save women of color from men of color. Hopefully you can see the reason that people of color might have a problem with this "White Savior" attitude that is expressed in many issues (not just the extreme one we have been discussing).
Glennn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 07:47 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Of course, the example of female circumcision is only one example. You chose this example because it is at the extreme end of things.

There are plenty of other examples where we judge practices in other cultures using American cultural standards.

You wonder why I'm making an issue out of something at the extreme end of things? If anything needs to be addressed, it's that.

You are trying to make this about White man's subjugation of Africa as if that somehow cancels out the barbarity of cutting the clitoris off little girls. It doesn't. Nor does White man's subjugation of other peoples take away my right to speak up for little girls when it comes to cutting their clitoris off.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 07:53 pm
@Glennn,
You are a White person right? You are expressing your opinion that women in these African cultures are acting in a way that is "barbaric" even though you know very little about these cultures... nor have you respectfully spoken to any of these women as her equal. This has everything to do with the judgment of White people on indigenous African cultures.

Of course you have a right to speak your opinion. I hold the same cultural values that you hold... and my gut instinct is to agree with you.

An African woman who is a part of this culture and understands the cost and the meaning of this practice from person experience has a far greater right to express her opinion and a far more valid voice.

As a White person, I don't feel comfortable telling African women or men that any of their cultural practices are barbaric.
Glennn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 08:04 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
You are expressing your opinion that women in these African cultures are acting in a way that is "barbaric" even though you know very little about these cultures

I don't need to understand everything about their culture to understand that it is wrong to cut off the clitoris of little girls. You're still telling yourself that if doing so is a cultural practice, then there's no barbarity. You believe in magic.
Quote:
This has everything to do with the judgment of White people on indigenous African cultures.

No it doesn't. It has to do with the practice of cutting the clitoris off little girls. You're still worried more about offending the people who advocate and actuate the barbarism than about offending the little girls who are the victims of it. Your political correctness is extreme to a fault.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 08:23 pm
@Glennn,
Let's talk about the other cultural practices of indigenous people.

Many indigenous cultures, from indigenous Americans, to pre-colonial Africans, to Asians had arranged child marriages. All of these cultures flourished, raised families, provided productive lives for their citizens for a long period of time before White people showed up and forced drastic changes to their cultures.

Do you feel that this practice of these cultures was barbaric?
TomTomBinks
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 11:33 pm
@maxdancona,
Your patience is admirable.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  5  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2016 01:14 am
I am amazed by Maxdacona and his holding on to old babaric traditions when it comes to girls and women. He agrees as it is a tradition of keeping women uneducated and suppressed in dominant Muslim countries.
I asked a couple of questions regarding traditions when it came to men, but did not get an answer.
So it looks like men in prodominant Muslim countries should have benefits and can do without certain traditions and women should be kept in suffering.
Maxdaconas attitude towards women is as low as one can get.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2016 04:21 am
@saab,
Glennn and I have had this discussion intelligently without any personal attacks. I appreciate this about Glennn.

If you tell me which questions you think I didn't answer, I will be happy to answer them. You are incorrect about my feeling about education of women. If you want to know my opinion on this, you can ask me to clarify instead of guessing incorrectly.

Education is an interesting issue when it comes to former Colonial States. Europe remains the dominant power in Africa since the original cultural structures have been destroyed and yes, European education is important now for economic success.

It's a morally difficult situation. Europe is a former colonial power that subjugated the original cultures in Africa Now it has the obligation of offering a European cultural artifact that Africa needs to survive in a world now dominated by European values. This is a difficult mess to navigate.

I am glad that you think I am amazing, but let's keep this discussion without personal attacks.
saab
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2016 05:13 am
@maxdancona,
Should medicin men continue to be the ones in charge of health instead of doctors - modern medicin came from the Western World and was not a tradition.
What about chopping off a hand of thieves? That is usually for men
Many of these things also happen in Arabian countries and you only refer to
Africa.
New question:
How about stoning men and women? Is that also a tradition you would like to keep and should not be stop? Do you really think people in Saudi Arabia enjoy being stoned ?
How about so and so many lashes as punishment? That is also a tradition, which should be continued?
Do find it correct that FGM and forced marriage is taken into our societies where they never were a tradition.? Or should Muslims follow our laws when living in a Western country?
It used to be a tradition that teachers could beat boys when they did not behave. The tradition in the Western World is gone. Good or bad?
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2016 06:20 am
Education:
How are girls getting an education in countries where men forbid them to go to school or where a country is too poor to give an education for boys and girls?
So African and Arabian countries get European values in the schools.
Let me see: Mathematics come from Arabian countries when I remember right
Languages: You usually learn first your own language and then a second one.
That we learned English, french and German hardly has anything to do with
colonisation.
Chemestry what has that to do with Western colonies?
Agriculture: they knew that long before the White Man arrived
Litteratur: They certainly have their own and learn about it.
Music: they have their own and their own instruments and play that style of music but also learn ours, but that is international. There are courses in Schublatter (?) in Japan.
Are you also for children working instead of going to school? That is also a tradition.
Your are so against what the West has done to destroy Africa and Asia.
We have also done some good.
1821 someone started an organisation to help poor people to get a better life throu education and better knowledge about acriculture and health and much more in Africa, Asia and India.
This organisation still is going strong and does a lot of good. This organisation is close to 200 years old. Try to figure out how many lifes has been improved by better education.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2016 07:37 am
@saab,
Quote:
How are girls getting an education in countries where men forbid them to go to school or where a country is too poor to give an education for boys and girls?
Damn good question! Let's invade all those backward countries, destroy the infrastructure, bomb them back to the stone age, kill the frigg'n suicide bombers. Then let's train up an army of those SAME FRIGG'N people to police these countries. They will soon come to value our enlightened ways and treat all the girls with respect and dignity.

Yeah, that'll work.

But seriously, thanks for posting how some groups are using a better approach.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2016 08:28 pm
@peacecrusader888,
peacecrusader888 wrote:
Do you call your wife as "Commander" or "Boss" or something similar?
I call her both commander and boss, however I do not call her "something similar" as she is the real thing.
peacecrusader888
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2016 02:07 am
@Chumly,
Quote:
I call her both commander and boss, however I do not call her "something similar" as she is the real thing.

When you call your wife (the real thing) as "Commander" or "Boss", how do you feel?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2016 05:42 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

I am amazed by Maxdacona and his holding on to old babaric traditions when it comes to girls and women.


I'm not.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2016 03:51 am
Mr Cholmondley Warner has some sage advice.

0 Replies
 
VexednHexed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2016 12:37 am
@peacecrusader888,
I say no one wear pants. We should all wear skirts/kilts. Besides, everyone knows if a guy can rock a kilt he's no ordinary fella.
0 Replies
 
 

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