Pants: women should not wear them

But as far as the topic goes, I recall that some guy said: The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man.

That guy should have finished his thought. I'll do it for him. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man because the identity and status I have claimed for myself is quite fragile because it is based on appearances.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

You say "nothing justifies the practice" of genital mutilation. You are wrong. Nothing justifies the practice of genital mutilation to someone with modern Western values,

You've probably heard this: I do not agree with what you're saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Sounds like you want to expand the context of that quote and amend it to: I do not approve of you cutting the clitoris off of young girls, but I will defend to the death your right to be that way because I fully understand that my disapproval is a result of my having been tainted by Western culture.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

why do women in some African cultures not only accept the practice, but value it and want it for their daughters?

That is something African women against FGM also ask their African sisters.
It seems like the ones for it are so stuck in the old traditions and are afraid of something new. Also they seem to think that their daughters should suffer lifelong just because they suffered lifelong.

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@saab,

Oh yes...there is another tradition this one regarding thieves.
Hack off their right hand. This means they cannot eat..right hand for eating, left hand for cleaning the anus.
Should that tradition also be kept - I think it mostly for men.

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@Glennn,

There is a basic contradiction in your argument, Glennn. I am trying to help you see it... but maybe you already do (and so the exercise is moot). You have stated that you, as an American woman have what you call an "innate understanding" that you admit that women in these African countries don't have. It seems that you meant the term "innate understanding" to mean an understanding that everyone regardless of culture would have.... hence the contradiction. But let's move on.

I am not exactly equating a cutting off of a part of the penis with the cutting off of the clitoris. Although, from my limited understanding, there are different forms of the procedure some of which don't involve the removal of the clitoris. I don't know if you would put that procedure in a different category.

But sure complete removal of an important part of sexuality is drastic. I have conceded the point... you and I agree completely on this. Since we were both raised and taught in the same cultural context, this is not surprising.

I will answer any question you have. Your latest question is "Whether or not girls between infancy and 15 years old want to have their 'genitals mutilated'.

Here is the answer (clearly and plainly)...

Obviously an infant doesn't have a say in any procedure whether male circumcision or female. All you can do is wait until they grow up and then ask them.

The 15 year old girl obviously does have a voice of her own... and I know of at least a few well-publicized cases where girls have run away, not wanting the procedure done. I suspect, based on my knowledge of how cultural rituals work and having read the voices of many adult women who have had the procedure done and think it was a good thing... that there are many girls who do want the procedure as part of a ritual of growing up and being part of their culture.

There are several cultures, including the Masai in Kenya, where young teen boys are forcibly circumcised... their foreskins are cut off by a group with no anesthesia when they reach the age of adulthood.

When you are brought up in a community, you are inculcated with the values that community and you form your identity based on what you are given from the people you are close to and the rituals you participate in.

This is how we work as social animals. So to answer your question, I suspect that most of the young men and women who go through these painful ceremonies to become adults and members of the community and the culture they are a part of... find this something that they want to do.

Of course neither you or I have any way to know, we are just speculating. The way to understand this better is to go and talk to the women who have had the procedure done, and who value it.

They are the only one who can explain this to you.

1 Reply

@saab,

saab wrote:

Quote:
why do women in some African cultures not only accept the practice, but value it and want it for their daughters?

That is something African women against FGM also ask their African sisters.
It seems like the ones for it are so stuck in the old traditions and are afraid of something new. Also they seem to think that their daughters should suffer lifelong just because they suffered lifelong.

Saab, are you aware of the history of these cultures?

When you say "old traditions" you are talking about African traditions that were developed by indigenous cultures that have lived there for millennia. When you say "something new" you are talking about European believes and ways of thinking.

Do you see the problem.

They had their own cultures, their own civilizations run by Africans using African values. The Europeans didn't help them... and we still see the damage done by the fact that the Europeans came to "civilize" these "barbaric" cultures.

You are still dismissing these indigenous cultures and insisting that the European way of thinking is the only way to do things. I don't accept that Europeans have any more "innate understanding" of right and wrong than anyone else.

We just had better guns.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

I am a patient person.

Yes you are. But I think Glenn is incapable of seeing anything from an external viewpoint. Your patience is wasted.

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@Leadfoot,

Glenn and Saab and I have been having an intelligent discussion without any personal attacks. Glenn has explained her points to me and has responded intelligently to my points even when she disagreed. And, she is admirably pushing on the weak points of my thesis.

I am here for the intellectual challenge. If you want to make personal attacks, please go away.

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@maxdancona,

That was an observation, not a personal attack. If you can't tell the difference, too ******* bad.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man because the identity and status I have claimed for myself is quite fragile because it is based on appearances.

Thank you, Glenn. I did not know it is in the Holy Bile. I remember that the spirit of Ama does not like women to be wearing pants.

Deuteronomy 22:5 states: "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

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@saab,

Quote:

That is something African women against FGM also ask their African sisters.

FGM is Female Genital Mutilation. Does it say in the Holy Bible about FGM? I know that there is circumcision of male on his eighth day, and I have not read about what to do with female.

1 Reply

@peacecrusader888,

Of course it does not say anything about it in the Bible. It is a prodominant Muslim tradition.
Thank God it is not /was not in the Judea/Christian tradition.
If you have not heard about it - inform yourself and inform Aman so he also can say a few words against it.
He seems to be a rather uninformed personality not being up to date since the Bible was written a few thousand years ago.

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@maxdancona,

It might be this is an intelligent discussion but it sure gives me very cold feel and sad on the same time.
A man who grew up in USA, who can read and write and whose wife hopefully also has a certain level of education is for traditions no matter how cruel, really shakes me up.
Women do not need an education if it is a tradition - half the population has no education. A tradition which leads to poverty.

Small girls can get FGM also bigger girls if they are forced to think it is good for them. Many girls bleed to death or die of infection. Most are traumatized. Those who survive can suffer adverse health effects during marriage and pregnancy. Die young, become a beautiful corpse because it is a tradition.

Forced marriage, forced to stay in a marriage no matter how cruel the man is and the mother-in-law. Just because it is a tradition

Should medicin men continue to be the ones in charge of health instead of doctors - modern medicin came from the Western World and was not a tradition.

What in our Western world - death panalty used to tradition, segregation used to be tradition, pogroms used to be a tradition. Should we have kept them or are people happy things have changed?

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

But I think Glenn is incapable of seeing anything from an external viewpoint.

Your defense of the right of adults to cut off the clitoris of little girls is amazing. Your defense of little girls . . . not so much.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

There is a basic contradiction in your argument, Glennn. I am trying to help you see it... but maybe you already do (and so the exercise is moot). You have stated that you, as an American woman have what you call an "innate understanding" that you admit that women in these African countries don't have. It seems that you meant the term "innate understanding" to mean an understanding that everyone regardless of culture would have.... hence the contradiction.

No contradiction. Everyone does have an innate understanding that it is wrong to cut off the clitoris of little girls. Being brought up in an environment where it is common practice has its effect. This is evidenced by the fact that some adults believe that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is a respectable thing to do and nobody's business but their own.

Quote:

I am not exactly equating a cutting off of a part of the penis with the cutting off of the clitoris. Although, from my limited understanding, there are different forms of the procedure some of which don't involve the removal of the clitoris. I don't know if you would put that procedure in a different category.

So you are clarifying the point is that you are defending all forms of this particular barbarism. Understood.

Quote:

But sure complete removal of an important part of sexuality is drastic. I have conceded the point... you and I agree completely on this. Since we were both raised and taught in the same cultural context, this is not surprising.

Drastic? Even when it comes to the most barbaric forms of this "cultural custom", you use a word designed to detract from the barbarity of the act. And you are still trying to promote the idea that the only reason I object to cutting the clitoris off little girls is because of the influence of our culture.

Quote:

Obviously an infant doesn't have a say in any procedure whether male circumcision or female. All you can do is wait until they grow up and then ask them.

I see. So after you cut the clitoris off a little girl, you believe that the issue of whether or not she had a choice in the matter or whether or not she thought it was the right thing to do can be determined by asking her about it when she's an adult. I see what you're saying, but I don't think you do. What would you ask such an adult woman? It would be something like: Pardon me for asking, but do you miss what you never had? Again, I understand what you're saying, but you do not.

Quote:

The 15 year old girl obviously does have a voice of her own... and I know of at least a few well-publicized cases where girls have run away, not wanting the procedure done. I suspect, based on my knowledge of how cultural rituals work and having read the voices of many adult women who have had the procedure done and think it was a good thing... that there are many girls who do want the procedure as part of a ritual of growing up and being part of their culture.

You need to explain how having your clitoris cut off fosters "growing up," and how it serves the culture. You are confusing a little girl's desire/conditioning to please her parents with her desire to have her clitoris cut off.

Quote:

There are several cultures, including the Masai in Kenya, where young teen boys are forcibly circumcised... their foreskins are cut off by a group with no anesthesia when they reach the age of adulthood.

You are trying to negate the pain of one gender by bringing the pain of another gender into the conversation. You know it doesn't work that way. But your use of the ploy does point out that you understand that doing so is necessary to defending your point.

Quote:

When you are brought up in a community, you are inculcated with the values that community and you form your identity based on what you are given from the people you are close to and the rituals you participate in.

You are saying that an identity based on the value of having your clitoris cut off speaks to the value of having your clitoris cut off. That is backwards thinking.

Quote:

I suspect that most of the young men and women who go through these painful ceremonies to become adults and members of the community and the culture they are a part of... find this something that they want to do.

Here you are relying on the judgment of culturally influenced children to determine the legitimacy of cutting off a little girl's clitoris.

Quote:

Of course neither you or I have any way to know, we are just speculating. The way to understand this better is to go and talk to the women who have had the procedure done, and who value it.

Women who value having their clitoris cut off should go have their clitoris cut off. However, children should be allowed to wait until they are mature adults, and then make the decision for themselves.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

Everyone does have an innate understanding that it is wrong to cut off the clitoris of little girls.

I don't agree with this statement. This is the crux of our intellectual disagreement. I have this innate understanding. You have this understanding. Every American has an innate understanding that is wrong to cut off the clitoris of little girls. But "everyone"?

It seems clear to me that people in certain indigenous African (and I think American as well) cultures do not have this innate understanding. They have a different understanding that they feel is better than your understanding.

I think the claim you are making is that if we had a way to erase culture from a group of people... raise them without out any culture... and then asked them what they think about the procedure that they would somehow agree with you (even though they don't have your cultural upbringing and experience).

Other than your strong deeply held beliefs (as an American woman) that this is wrong, do you have any objective reason to believe that women raised outside of any culture would agree with you?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Your point is that Americans have been culturally conditioned to believe that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is wrong, and that Africans have been culturally conditioned to believe that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is right. It is obvious what side of the fence you fall on.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"But I think Glenn is incapable of seeing anything from an external viewpoint."

Your defense of the right of adults to cut off the clitoris of little girls is amazing. Your defense of little girls . . . not so much.

That is a good example of what I mean by your inability to see things from another viewpoint. The only thing I wrote on that subject made it clear that I find the practice abhorrent and that their 'culture' is no defense of it.

It is only the measures that some people and governments think are the best way to address this travesty that I object to.

But you simply cannot see anything that departs even a tiny bit from your own world view. Even when it supports it.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

But I think Glenn is incapable of seeing anything from an external viewpoint.

This is your contribution. What part of that do you think points to your belief that it's wrong to cut off the clitoris of little girls.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"But I think Glenn is incapable of seeing anything from an external viewpoint."

This is your contribution. What part of that do you think points to your belief that it's wrong to cut off the clitoris of little girls.

No, this is what I said a couple of pages ago:

Quote:

Child marriages, FGM and many of the other practices you mentioned make me sick too. And I personally don't give a damn about 'culture', mine or theirs. Reason, logic and free will dominate my judgements on all maters.
As you point out, many women of those 'cultures' are in favor of these insane practices.

Free will means you can choose to abandon reason and logic therefore the only legitimate intervention one culture should impose on another is information. If upon receipt of that information they choose to adopt better practices then I would support them morally and to the extent that it is possible, materially.

I think we (the United States) has overstepped our right to intervene and missed our opportunity to inform and educate in many cases. The internet is probably the greatest force for good in that respect, better than any government program.

It's not all about you.

1 Reply

Pants: women should not wear them

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