Pants: women should not wear them

We have the exact same idea when it comes to operating within our 21st century Western cultural context about both child marriage and female genital mutilation. (As an aside, I wonder if we agree about male genital mutilation).

The question is whether the cultures, including indigenous cultures of the Americas, Africa and Asia, that practice these things should be called barbaric?

Western European Culture is now dominant in much of the word. There are many cultures that we have subjugated (often brutally) in order to ensure that most cultures no longer do things of which we disapprove. Polygamy and child marriage were common in the indigenous cultures of pre-colonial America. These cultures were wiped out precisely because we considered them barbaric.

I am curious Glenn, other than the cultures we have subjugated... are there any cultures that you don't consider barbaric?

You're trying to push the idea that the act of cutting off a girls clitoris only seems barbaric because we were born and raised in a land where it is not done. Really?

Whether or not a group of people are wiped out for their practice of mutilating the genitals of girls is neither here nor there when it comes to the question of whether or not it's a barbaric practice. You're trying to justify the practice by pointing out that the response to it is disproportional. But nothing justifies the practice, or the defense of the practice.

Obviously you are taking the extreme case without answering the question about whether the European cultures that find this practice barbaric have the right to impose their views on these other cultures.

Sure... I am an American and I find genital mutilation as troubling as you do. And as the dominant military and economic power we have a great way to make people in other cultures see things our way.

You say "nothing justifies the practice" of genital mutilation. You are wrong. Nothing justifies the practice of genital mutilation to someone with modern Western values,

There are many people (including women as you pointed out yourself) who do justify the practice. You can explain to them why you think your culture is superior to theirs. But there is really only one way to decide which of you are correct.

Any time in history that a militarily superior culture has successfully dominated a weaker culture over a large period of time, it is the subjugated people always have the most barbaric culture. You are now part of a militarily and economically dominant culture... and you are continuing the pattern of finding barbarism in the weaker cultures around you.

As an aside Glennn.

I wonder what would happen if you sat down to talk to a woman who believes that some form of ritual cutting of the clitoris is a valuable and appropriate practice as part of her culture. (I will point out that someone who held this view would not use the term "mutilation" to describe it... this is a Western term for the practice).

Could you sit down with this woman as her equal and listen respectfully to her point of view with judging her?

You're jumping the gun again. I did not say anything about invading and imposing my will on people who think it is a good idea to mutilate the genitals of girls or marry off emotionally and psychologically immature girls to mature males. I'm telling you that it is a barbaric practice.

You are trying to tell yourself and others that it is only because of your Western values that you find it objectionable. So you do not even trust your own innate objection to using a scalpel on a girl's clitoris to make her more acceptable. You should give your common sense of decency more credit.

Again with the jumping the gun. Why is it that you accuse people who voice their disapproval of barbaric practices in other lands of judging their own culture as superior? We're talking about barbaric practices. You want to turn this into an indictment of those who recognize barbarism when they see it, but that's not going to happen.

And as far as the women who care to justify the practice, let them have it for themselves if that's what they want. But if they don't want it, don't you support their right to opt out of the program?

There is no such thing as an innate objection.

You object to ritual cutting of the clitoris because you were trained to object to it. You have spent your entire life in a Western culture, Every influence has taught you to see things from a Western perspective from your parents, to school, to your peers.

That is the basic problem. You can only see thing from your own cultural perspective and this is why you assume that it is "innate".

You get your "common sense of decency" from your culture. And if you were brought up as a pre-colonial Aztec... your ideas of what is "barbaric" and "decent" then the ones you have now.

Like it or not, you are a product of a specific culture with a specific set of beliefs and values. There is no objective reason to think that your perspective is superior or "innate" or "common".

Different cultures have vastly different ideas about what is barbaric or not barbaric. Your use of terms like "common sense of decency" and "innate objection" implies that your culture somehow is more true than any other culture.

You believe that mutilating a girl's genitals is only objectionable because you've been trained to object to it. I wasn't trained to object to it. When I first heard of it, I was appalled. No training required.

I think that in order for you to understand what it is, you would have to have it done to you. Then you would be more able to judge whether or not it is a barbaric practice. As it is, you appear to be incapable empathizing with the unwilling victims of such barbarity. Did this Western culture train you to become such?

So why does every American woman feel appalled when they hear about the practice. And why do women in some African cultures not only accept the practice, but value it and want it for their daughters?

Why do you think women are divided by culture this way... with women who believe one thing all are in one culture and women who believe the opposite are all in the other culture?

Do you think that the women in your culture (who all believe the same thing) happen to be right without any influence from the culture around them or the way that we were raised?

How do you explain that?

Because the practice involves pulling the clothes off a girl, spreading her legs, and cutting her clitoris off.

At this point, I can only conclude that you are just pulling my chain because there is no one who doesn't understand what that is and what it means.

You are avoiding the question....

The question is why do American women as a group disagree with women in some African cultures ... where all women in one culture think one way and all of the women in another culture believe the opposite.

How do you explain this?

(Incidentally, I had a piece of my penis cut off when I was a baby and too young to consent to the procedure. I wish this hadn't been done, there is evidence that this changes the sexual experience... yet my culture accepts it (and part of my cultural heritage demands it)).

Is your point that the girls who have their clitoris cut off want that to be done?

Also, is your point that having your foreskin removed is equal in effect to having the clitoris removed?

I think you know the answer to both.

The question I trying (patiently) to get you to answer is why all of the women in your Western culture agree with you that the practice is abhorrent and nearly all the women in some African cultures find the practice to be acceptable or desirable.

How do you explain the way that women with these two sets of beliefs are divided so cleanly between two cultures?

I think your claim is that American women just know that it is abhorrent and that their cultural upbringing has nothing to do with it. I want you to explain how women in certain African cultures don't have this "innate knowledge".

Are you aware that almost all female genital mutilations is done to girls from infancy to 15 years old? Do you really believe that these girls want to have their clitoris cut out? What is our answer to that?

By the way, do you have a son? If so, is he circumcised?

I share your disgust with the practice of female genital mutilation. We both believe that it is abhorrent. This isn't an interesting part of the discussion. I take your word for you fact (although I think I have read that there is considerable variation in the way the procedure is performed .... although I am not an expert).

I do know for a fact that there are women, who have undergone the procedure themselves, who approve of the procedure and want it for their daughters. They certainly have a knowledge of that this experience is like, and what it means to them as women that you or I can't have.

But this doesn't change the feeling of being appalled that you and I share when hearing about this procedure.

I don't have a better answer than that. And neither do you... you have to ask the women and girls involved including the ones that support the cultural practice.

You still haven't answered my question. Can you please?

Yes I have two sons. Neither of them is circumcised.

Good for you.

If a woman wants her genitals mutilated, then that's what she wants. Wanting that for her daughter is a violation of her rights as a human.

You want an answer to the question of why some women are conditioned to believe that there is virtue in having their genitals mutilated while others are not. The answer is in the question. Conditioning.

Do you have a son? And if so, did you have him circumcised?

But I thought you said that Western culture accepts and demands it. So how is it that you are contrary to a practice done in your own culture. Do you think you're superior to the rest of us, or what? I'm just throwing you into your own face.

You are going to a lot of effort to avoid answering my question. I am a patient person.

1. Circumcising male babies is perfectly acceptable in the US right now. I could have chosen to circumcise my sons with no sanction or public disapproval. I chose to not circumcise them which is also acceptable in the modern US culture.

2. Part of my ancestry is Jewish. Jewish culture demands that all male children are circumcised as infants

You already know both of these facts. You are just stalling.

Can can you please answer the question about why you think women in different cultures have such vastly different ideas about the practice of female circumcision?

There you go again, trying to equate circumcision with the cutting off of the clitoris. That's mighty dishonest of you.

The reason some people in the world accept it is because of their culture. You said it yourself. So why do you continue to ask a question that you yourself have answered?

The question you are avoiding is whether or not girls between infancy and 15 years old want to have their genitals mutilated. Give me your best guess.