Pants: women should not wear them

@Leadfoot,

Then your comment about me being incapable of seeing anything from an external viewpoint was just your way of saying that you agree with me?? It's confusing, ain't it?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

Your point is that Americans have been culturally conditioned to believe that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is wrong, and that Africans have been culturally conditioned to believe that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is right. It is obvious what side of the fence you fall on.

Both Americans and Africans have been culturally conditioned. I fall on the same side of the fence you fall on. I have been culturally conditioned the same way that you have. I believe (as you do) that cutting the clitoris of little girls is morally wrong and appalling.

The question is whether a human being, absent any cultural conditioning, would agree with you... or would agree with the African women who disagree with you.

You can't answer this question any better than I can. The idea that your beliefs, as an American, aren't based on and directed by your cultural conditioning as an American, defies reason (unless you believe that American culture has some special claim to the truth that other cultures don't have).

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Your position is that if anyone is appalled by the act of cutting the clitoris off a little girl, there is no way of actually knowing whether such a thing is good or bad because our judgment will always be influenced by our cultural conditioning. Does that sum up your position?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Yes. That sums up my position.

Imagine you sitting down to discuss this issue with a woman from one of these African cultures. And imagine that she believes that this cultural practice is not only moral, but deeply important to what it means to be a woman in her culture.

Would you be able to sit down and talk to this woman as an equal? Would you be able to listen to her point of view with respect?

Assuming that neither of you could convince the other... that you ended up as you began, an American woman and an African woman with a deeply held beliefs who disagree on an issue of great importance to both of you....

You would remain absolutely certain that you are correct. She would remain absolutely certain that she is correct. How would you decide between you and this African woman which of you is "actually" right?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

It can be (confusing that is).

I'm agreeing to the extent that doing anything as life altering as cutting the clitoris of a young girl or marrying her off to a man before she is old enough to understand what it means is misguided regardless of cultural backgrounds.

It's just unfortunate that there is often nothing we can do about it other than try to let women and girls know that they should have a say in it.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Yes. That sums up my position.

Okay. Of course, going by your logic, if I beat you up and cripple you to get your money to prove myself as a man, it is only your cultural conditioning that would cause you to resent me for doing it. Therefore, who's to say whether what I did to you is right or wrong?

Quote:

And imagine that she believes that this cultural practice is not only moral, but deeply important to what it means to be a woman in her culture.

You're just repeating yourself. So I'll repeat myself. I have no problem with a woman who believes that having her clitoris cut off will somehow fulfill her as a female human being. Let her have at it. But when that woman decides that what's good for her is also good for little girls, then it becomes something else entirely.

Quote:

How would you decide between you and this African woman which of you is "actually" right?

The one who believes that cutting off the clitoris of little girls will somehow fulfill them and make them more complete as a woman is wrong. Female genital mutilation is exactly what it sounds like, no matter how much lipstick you try to put on it.

2 Replies

@Glennn,

You are missing the point of the question I asked, but I will answer your question first...

I live within a modern American cultural context. This works very well for me since I was raised in the cultural context. Everyone which whom I come into context has the same basic understanding of right and wrong. We all understand the same set of rules to make sure our society runs well. So yes, if you beat me up and cripple me, you and I would both understand that this was wrong. The people around us (all being Americans) would understand that you were in the wrong, and our laws would also punish you for breaking this societal rule.

If I (with my American cultural upbringing and moral understanding) were transported to a pre-colonial Aztec community, the rules would be quite different. It might be acceptable for you to beat me up for some reason I didn't understand. In this case my moral outrage would be meaningless.... in a different culture the rules are different.

Any successful culture has had a set of rules that everyone understands that allow the society to function and prosper. If you look through history, you will see that the way that successful cultures have set up these rules are wildly different.

Our culture is just one example of a successful culture. Our moral values don't apply in other cultures.

1 Reply

@Glennn,

Quote:

Female genital mutilation is exactly what it sounds like, no matter how much lipstick you try to put on it.

I am sure you understand that this practice was not called "female genital mutilation" until White people came into this existing African culture to tell them how barbaric their customs are.

If you have respect for a culture, you should use their words to describe their practices (even if you disagree with them).

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

It's just unfortunate that there is often nothing we can do about it other than try to let women and girls know that they should have a say in it.

this is really a decent summary of why some cultures fight against educating women - why girls schools are burned/bombed, why girls are kidnapped from schools ...

2 Replies

@ehBeth,

How much of the upheaval we see in Africa now is directly because of Colonialism?

When White people came to Africa. we declared the existing cultures there to be "barbaric". We then proceeded to systematically destroy these cultures, uprooting social structures and invalidating longstanding cultural values. This is why there is so much violence and suffering... the original structures developed over millennia to provide stable societies have been ripped out and replaced by a foreign system of values.

Imagine if White people had never come to Africa. These old customs that White people find "barbaric" would likely still prevail... but the old social structures would still function and the customs would continue without being upset (perhaps changing over time, but likely taking a quite different path than our culture took).

If the White people never came to Africa.... do you think things would be better, or would they be worse?

My biggest issue on this thread is the implicit belief that our culture is right, and that other cultures are better off with our moral values rather than their own. We White people aren't as important as many of us think we are.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Quote:

Leadfoot wrote:
"It's just unfortunate that there is often nothing we can do about it other than try to let women and girls know that they should have a say in it."

this is really a decent summary of why some cultures fight against educating women - why girls schools are burned/bombed, why girls are kidnapped from schools ...

Yep. Did you know that the name 'Boko Haram' (the group that kidnapped ~260 girls from a school) literally translated means "Western education is evil"? They are terribly wrong about how women are treated and many other things. But the funny thing is, they are right about some things. Every culture has its blind spots.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

The people around us (all being Americans) would understand that you were in the wrong, and our laws would also punish you for breaking this societal rule.

Ah, so majority rules when it comes to what is right and what is wrong? No such rule exists. The best you can do here is to claim that what society believes is right. In reality, if you were the little girl having her clitoris cut out, you would understand exactly what it is, and you would call it what it is.

In the subculture that I lived in, beating you up and robbing you was perfectly acceptable. And I understood the failure of society to recognize my needs, and the strong-arm-rules principal I lived by. I accept that you would call the law to your aid, but you have no right to disrespect my subculture beliefs, right?

What is especially humorous is that you admit to not being able to trust yourself to decide whether cutting off a little girl's clitoris is right or wrong, but you're damned sure that if I took your wallet, that would just be wrong because it would be so obvious that you had been violated. Isn't that funny? The thing about one's priorities is that they will always expose one's true values.

0 Replies

@Leadfoot,

I'm very aware of Boko Haram and their goals/beliefs.

Walking distance from my home is a school where there is a cultural battle over education right now. Friends of mine are actively involved in musical programs there hoping to gradually bring the adults to a point of less fear/distrust of education so that their children will attend school regularly.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

I am sure you understand that this practice was not called "female genital mutilation"

So, whether something is barbaric or not depends on what the people committing the barbaric act decide to call it? I see . . .

Quote:

If you have respect for a culture, you should use their words to describe their practices

So, my first priority when it comes to those who cut the clitoris out of little girls is to not offend those doing the cutting? I see . . .

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

When White people came to Africa. we declared the existing cultures there to be "barbaric". We then proceeded to systematically destroy these cultures

And you believe that this somehow changes the barbaric nature of the act of cutting the clitoris off little girls? Explain how that works.

Quote:

My biggest issue on this thread is the implicit belief that our culture is right

Who said that? I think you're ignoring your penchant for characterizing someone's criticism of cutting off the clitoris of little girls as a proclamation of the correctness of our culture. Culture aside, cutting off the clitoris of little girls is not right.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Quote:

Friends of mine are actively involved in musical programs there hoping to gradually bring the adults to a point of less fear/distrust of Western education so that their children will attend school regularly.

I wish them well. But it would help if they are able to listen to why it is that Western education is mistrusted. We only assume there is no reason why they should not.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

I corrected that post. Western education isn't the issue. It's education in general - other than religious.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

Very well. Peace.

0 Replies

@Glennn,

You are right that we are going around in circles now. This is where you are wrong.

Quote:

Culture aside, cutting off the clitoris of little girls is not right.

The fact is that your culture says that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is "not right" (actually I think "barbaric" was a better word). The fact is that in some African cultures cutting the clitoris of little girls is an important part of their identity.

One culture says one thing. The other culture says another thing. You are saying "no, I am absolutely right and they are absolutely wrong". I am sure I could find a person equally as intelligent and passionate saying that you are absolutely right and they are absolutely wrong.

You want to say the phrase "culture aside" as if you have access to some absolute truth that transcends culture. But if you say that, then you implying that this African woman who is equally intelligent and equally passionate doesn't have access to this absolute truth. I don't believe that your opinion, as confident as you are that you are correct, and as deep as you feel about this, is any more valid than the equally passionate and confident beliefs help by other women.

The fact is that you are invalidating the beliefs held by women in an African culture. You are saying that you know better about what is best for African daughters than their own African mothers.

Even in this most extreme case that you chose to discuss, the cutting off of a girls clitoris, I find the idea that White people imposing their views about right or wrong on an indigenous African culture deeply troubling.

In truth, I don't have a good answer to this dilemma. But the simplistic view that American cultural values are right and African cultural values such as the cutting off of the clitoris of girls are barbaric is problematic.

This is especially true given the history of White people in Africa. White people have a sad history of telling Africans that their cultural practices are barbaric. I don't think White people's opinions about which African practices are barbaric have any validity (even when it comes to cutting off a girls clitoris).

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Quote:

I find the idea that White people imposing their views about right or wrong on an indigenous African culture deeply troubling.

Yeah, but do you find female genital mutilation troubling enough to complain about to the same degree that you complain about the criticism of the act?

Quote:

You are saying that you know better about what is best for African daughters than their own African mothers.

No, I'm saying that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is wrong regardless of who does it.

Quote:

The fact is that you are invalidating the beliefs held by women in an African culture.

No, I'm saying that cutting off the clitoris of little girls is wrong. And I'm not invalidating anyone's beliefs. I'm invalidating an act of barbarity. You are more concerned about how the fallout from what I'm saying will affect the people who advocate and allow this barbarity than you are about the little girls who are the victims of it.

1 Reply

Pants: women should not wear them

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