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Rumsfeld deleted as CEO of Iraq?

 
 
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 01:39 pm
terms of agreement (cease of hostilites) in Najaf established today which include withdrawal of US and Friends military from Najaf. Agreement reached by 2 Muslim clerics rather than Iraq Provisional government or Coalition forces. Seems as though the de facto government of Iraq is indeed Muslim clerics who are disregarding the "intimidation by brute force" that has been in effect starting with the US/Coalition forces and then fronted by the provisional government forces rendering the current status of both of the above meaningless. If today's events are indicative of the future of Iraq then Iraq is a theocracy which Rumsfeld has said he would never allow. Well, we can at least hope for the end of the killing as we watch the eroding of the provisional government. So many dead needlessly. I await Rumsfeld's statement that this is what he had in mind all along.
Quote:
The plan called for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, for all foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf and leave security to the police, and for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 01:46 pm
"The plan called for Najaf and Kufa to be declared weapons-free cities, for all foreign forces to withdraw from Najaf and leave security to the police, and for the government to compensate those harmed by the fighting."

So the government of Iraq is going to compensate the US soldiers? That is good news!
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 01:56 pm
Quote:
Iraq is a theocracy which Rumsfeld has said he would never allow.


In between this and the recent report about Rummy's complicity in the Abu Ghraib scandal, things aren't looking too good for the ol' department of defense these days.

Cycloptichorn
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 02:01 pm
Karzak, I'm not positive but pretty sure the compensation will be for victims rather than perpetrators.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 02:03 pm
Like I said, the US military. The perps were the ones resisting lawful arrest.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 02:04 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Karzak, I'm not positive but pretty sure the compensation will be for victims rather than perpetrators.


well in all fairness dys.....the US soldiers are also victims....victims of the bush administration.....but certainly anyone possessing even half a brain gets your point .......
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 02:06 pm
That would certainly explain the confusion in this particular circumstance, Bear . . .
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 02:16 pm
now fellas Karzak has a point that has been tested by US courts, I remember clearly an attmpted bank robber fell though a sky-light breaking a leg and then sued the bank for his injuries. Perhaps Bush should sue Iraq for the cost of our invasion.(or is that what the oil is for?)
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Aug, 2004 02:16 pm
Oh yeah......
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 10:38 am
this seemed, to me, to be an event of major implications for Bush's foreign policy, Rumsfeld's military agenda, the future of Iraq's quest for democracy and yet has received virtually no comentary here on A2K. Why is that?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 10:45 am
It's because there is no easy defense now for the conservatives to fall back on.

So, instead of coming in here and admitting that a key member of their administration is going through some extremely rough sh*t, they stay out of the thread completely.

Cycloptichorn
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 10:48 am
It's because there aren't any talking points issued on it yet -- give them time.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 11:31 am
Here's a talking point for them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A37221-2004Aug26?language=printer

Quote:

How Torture Came Down From the Top

By Jackson Diehl
Friday, August 27, 2004; Page A21

The latest official reports on the prisoner abuse scandal contain a classic Washington contradiction. Their headlines proclaim that no official policy mandated or allowed the torture of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that no officials above the rank of colonel deserve prosecution or formal punishment. But buried in their hundreds of pages of detail, for anyone who cares to read them, is a clear and meticulous account of how decisions made by President Bush, his top political aides and senior military commanders led directly to those searing images of naked prisoners being menaced with guard dogs.

An abbreviated tour of that buried narrative could begin on Page 33 of the report by the panel led by James R. Schlesinger. There it details how President Bush, on the advice of his White House counsel and attorney general, decided in February 2002 that the Geneva Conventions would not apply to captured members of al Qaeda and Afghanistan's Taliban. This, despite the objections of the State Department and "many service lawyers," who worried that the decision "would undermine the United States military culture, which is based on a strict adherence to the law of war."

In October 2002, Schlesinger recounts, authorities at the Guantanamo Bay prison "requested approval of strengthened counter-interrogation techniques," and in December, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld authorized a number of harsh methods. He was challenged by the military lawyers whom he had failed to consult, and the policy was revised in April 2003.

Already, however, the techniques first authorized by Rumsfeld were circulating around the world. According to the report of Army Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, "the techniques employed in [Guantanamo] included the use of stress positions, isolation for up to thirty days, removal of clothing and the use of detainees' phobias (such as the use of dogs)," all of which had been approved by Rumsfeld. "From December 2002, interrogators in Afghanistan were removing clothing, isolating people for long periods of time, using stress positions, exploiting fear of dogs and implementing sleep and light deprivation."

How did these abusive practices spread to Iraq, where they were clearly illegal under the Geneva Conventions? "Interrogators in Iraq," Fay writes, "already familiar with the practice of some of these new ideas, implemented them even prior to any policy guidance" from Iraq commanders. But there was "policy guidance," too. In August 2003, Schlesinger says, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller, then the commander at Guantanamo Bay, arrived in Iraq; "he brought the Secretary of Defense's April 16, 2003, policy guidelines for Guantanamo with him and gave this policy to" Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the top commander in Iraq.

On Sept. 14, as Schlesinger recounts it, "Sanchez signed a memorandum authorizing a dozen interrogation techniques beyond" the standard Army practice under the Geneva Conventions, including "five beyond those approved for Guantanamo." He did so, Schlesinger says, "using reasoning from the President's Memorandum of February 7, 2002," which he believed justified "additional, tougher measures." The methods he approved included several of those on which Rumsfeld had signed off 10 months earlier and which subsequently had appeared in Afghanistan: stress positions, fear of dogs, and sleep and light deprivation.

Sanchez's policy was revised a month later, but interrogators at Abu Ghraib, Fay reports, had begun using it immediately. Consequently, some guards and interrogators who used dogs to frighten prisoners, deprived them of clothing or subjected them to extreme isolation had every reason to believe their acts were authorized. As Lt. Gen. Anthony R. Jones delicately put it in his report, "Some of these incidents involved conduct which, in retrospect, violated international law. However, at the time some of the soldiers or contractors committed the acts, they may have honestly believed the techniques were condoned."

The causal chain is all there: from Bush's February 2002 decision to Rumsfeld's December 2002 authorization of nudity, stress positions and dogs; to the adoption of those methods in Afghanistan and their sanction in Iraq by a commander looking back to Bush's decision; and finally, to their use on detainees by soldiers who reasonably believed they were executing official policy.

So why do the reports' authors deny the role of policy, or its makers? Partly because of the Army's inbred inability to indict its own; partly because of the desire of Rumsfeld's old colleagues, such as Schlesinger, to protect him. But there's another motive, too: a lingering will to defend and preserve the groundbreaking decisions -- those that set aside the Geneva Conventions and allowed harsh interrogation techniques. Schlesinger argues they are needed for the war on terrorism; he and senior Army commanders say they are worried about a "chilling effect" on interrogations and a slackening in intelligence collection.

The buried message of their reports, though, is that the new system is unworkable. Once the rules are bent for one class of prisoner, or one detention facility, or one agency, exceptional practices cannot be easily returned to their bottle -- and the chaos of Abu Ghraib is a predictable result. Just as the Army professionals foresaw, Bush's 2002 decision undermined "U.S. military culture" and its "strict adherence to the law of war." That is the headline the investigators ducked.


How deep will the rabbit hole go?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 11:34 am
Here's another good talking point memo for em.

http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=535915.html



Quote:
The report this week by the James Schlesinger panel offers the closest thing we'll get to a smoking gun. Connect the dots, and it's all there: The sadism at Abu Ghraib stemmed from "confusion." Confusion sounds accidental - like maybe it just blew in off the Atlantic - but the report is clear that this confusion resulted from systemic failures at the highest levels. The report faults ambiguous interrogation mandates, an inadequate postwar plan, poor training and a lack of oversight. It notes that much of this confusion stemmed from the Bush administration posture that the Geneva Conventions applied only where the president saw fit, and that the definition of "interrogation" was up for grabs at Guantánamo Bay, thus possibly at Abu Ghraib.

Or you can put your ear right up to the horse's mouth, where - even before the Schlesinger report - Rumsfeld owned the blame. "These events occurred on my watch. As secretary of defense, I am accountable for them and I take full responsibility," he told the Senate Armed Services Committee in May. But we live in an era when such words are intended to signify simultaneous culpability and absolution.

Schlesinger's insistence that Rumsfeld not leave office - because his departure would "be a boon to all of America's enemies" - is a pragmatic argument. It doesn't even pretend to be a just one.


That last part really chaps my ass.

Cycloptichorn
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 12:02 pm
Those of you here who are so infatuated with the taking of lines of inference to their ultimate possible conclusion should also consider the accountability of Bill Clinton for his failure to adequately react to the first attempt by Al Quaeda to take out the World Trade Center in 1993. You could also throw in several subsequent terrorist acts, at the barracks in Saudi Arabia, our Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the USS Cole and so on. Then of course are the opportunities unused for taking out Bin Laden. Also the beyond-the-legal-requirement construction of a "wall:" between the CIA and FBI for use of information relative to terrorist penetration of this country.

Why stop there - how about the accountability of Jimmy Carter, Stanisfield ZTurner and Sen. Frank Church for the dismemberment of our covert intelligence collection capability.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 12:13 pm
Mistakes in policy formation on an international level, and a prison policy that allows and even encourages violations of the Geneva convention and torture are hardly comprable.

Apples
and
Oranges.

Cycloptichorn
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 12:14 pm
Sez who? Certainly the consequences of 9/11 on the victims were far worse.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 12:16 pm
You can't seriously be comparing mistakes that we made in the past (we should have taken out Bin Laden long ago, for example) with allowing torture to go on?

Cycloptichorn
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 12:29 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Sez who? Certainly the consequences of 9/11 on the victims were far worse.


I don't agree. I would rather die a certain death in a fiery collapsing building than to be systematically tortured by invaders to my country with no possible way of knowing how long it will go on.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Aug, 2004 01:34 pm
I believe the dead victims of the World Trade center would see the comparison differently -- if they could speak.

I think you guys are hyperventillating over a relatively small issue. The "torture" has stopped and no one was killed.

Certainly no one condones the stupidity that went on, and nothing excuses the behavior of the insufficiently supervised guards at the prison. However, it is unrealistic to expect that in any large enterprise no mishaps of this order of magnitude might occur. Much worse has occurred in every war in the history of mankind.
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