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How can a good God allow suffering

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Oct, 2019 12:09 am
@Leadfoot,
Did I now?

I think it's performed pretty well, certain posters keep telling me what they think I am, (or not) and they all say something different.

I'm only talking beliefs here, not politics, I hardly keep that to myself.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 09:18 am
@izzythepush,
Nobody actually does this. All people feel they are able to use logic, and find their own arguments convincing. In fact, every person asserting their personal view that "personal views should be kept personal" is obviously preaching.

When you hold a faith that you believe has the potential to change a person's life and eternal destiny for the good, why keep it to yourself? It would be like discovering a miracle cure to a deadly disease and withholding information on that cure from people who suffer from the same disease.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 09:24 am
@HabibUrrehman,
I've not advocated any philosophical position on A2K. I have challenged those who do.

Most believers think they're right regardless of what they believe.

A lot of religious posters on A2K are hypocritical hate merchants who equally believe they're right.

Hitler thought he was right, it would have been better if he kept his beliefs to himself.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 09:34 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
I do believe that there is indeed a single universal Truth, but there are different paths to reaching it. Everyone who is trying to live correctly is confronted with problems of the this world that obstruct achievement of the ideal.

I agree with you. Paths can be different but universal truth is only one. God is either one as Muslims claim or three persons in one being as Christians claim but both statements can't be true at the same time.

Quote:
Remember, blasphemy of Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, so if you are truly/sincerely putting effort into achieving right thinking and living and you haven't yet grasped acceptance of Christ, then how have you failed? What's more, if you truly believe that Christ is a false prophet and you accepted Him on that basis, wouldn't that be in conflict with your conscience and thus your submission to Holy Spirit?

Ultimately, all prophets are servants of Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is nothing more or less than the spirit of God in our midst. Arguing about what is God and what isn't God doesn't help with submission to God, unless it does. If all it helps you do is reject things that you should be studying to support your submission, then it is impeding submission, no?


I understand what you are trying to say. Why you need holy spirit when God has already revealed the guidance? If holy spirit guides each person differently then how you know the thing you are following is not from devil? Why we needed prophets in the past if holy spirit is the way to guide you to the truth?
By the way, in Quran holy spirit refers to angel Gabriel who brings down Divine message from God to His prophets.

Quote:
I may read the thread, but I can already tell you that if your intent is to demonize other religious paths, I don't think you are helping God help anyone get closer to Him. Anytime someone discovers a true truth, through study of a text, meditation/contemplation, or whatever; that is a step in the right direction because no truth can be true except because God wills it. So if someone discovers a false truth, then it is good if they discover that it is false, but until they do, it is impossible to force them to abandon it except by trying to help them see the light otherwise. We are not supposed to judge people for false beliefs, only attempt to help them see the light of their error.

You may honestly believe that Christians are misled in studying the crucifixion as part of Jesus' teachings, but you may also be misled in your belief. All anyone can do is maintain steadfast faith in pursuing true revelation and accept that whatever we understand to be the truth at a given moment is what we've been granted, and there is always more truth to come in this world, i.e. because we can never know the full, perfect Truth until we get beyond the trappings and obstructions of this fallen world.


I dont underestimate the value of Bible and Christian beliefs. I do agree that there is some truth in the Bible which can lead sincere people to ultimate truth.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 10:54 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I agree with you. Paths can be different but universal truth is only one. God is either one as Muslims claim or three persons in one being as Christians claim but both statements can't be true at the same time.

Sure they can. God's Holy Spirit permeates the creation, and Jesus came to embody Holy Spirit in the flesh, in order to give sinners a path back to God.

Quote:

I understand what you are trying to say. Why you need holy spirit when God has already revealed the guidance?

There is nothing, not the Bible nor the Quran nor any other text, that provides a direct connection with God. Any text can be misinterpreted in an unholy way. All the scriptures and teachers/preachers/imams/prophets/etc. including Jesus, do is bring people to Holy Spirit so they can connect with God and serve Him directly.

Quote:
If holy spirit guides each person differently then how you know the thing you are following is not from devil?

The devil is always trying to mislead/trick you. All you can do is earnestly seek Truth and be receptive to (true) Holy Spirit. When Holy Spirit reveals to you that you've been tricked/misled, you confess, repent, and learn from the mistake. No truth is revealed to your consciousness/conscience except through Holy Spirit.

Let's use a simple example to understand revelation through Holy Spirit vs. externally-validated truth: If a math teacher tells you that 2+2=4 or that Pi is an irrational number without repeating sequences of digits, you can accept the teacher's authority as an externally-validated source. In that case, you don't truly know whether the teacher is telling you the truth but you just accept it because you assume the teacher has better access to truth than you do.

If you are true to Holy Spirit, however, you will struggle to understand why/how 2+2=4 and/or how Pi can go on endlessly without repeating digits; and at some point you will experience revelation inside yourself that these claims are truly true. You no longer have to take the teacher or other authority-source's word for it that it's true because you have experienced knowing it for yourself.

This is not to say that we aren't sometimes deluded in believing something is true that later turns out to be false, but as long as we stay true to Holy Spirit, we are only interested in discovering further what is truly true or false, and not in defending knowledge that could turn out to be false. That doesn't mean we can't continue to honor the reasons we previously experienced false knowledge to be true, but only that we are always interested in becoming more aware of what is really true and how/why.

Quote:
Why we needed prophets in the past if holy spirit is the way to guide you to the truth?

Prophets, angels, etc. are only true if their ultimate goal is to connect you with God directly. If their goal is to become an intermediary between you and God, that would be keeping you separated from God in their own selfish interest of controlling you. Think about it: when you teach your children something, is it because you want them to just take your word for it and never grasp it for themselves, or is it because you want them to see the truth for themselves and thus share in your direct experience of truth?

Quote:
By the way, in Quran holy spirit refers to angel Gabriel who brings down Divine message from God to His prophets.

Yes, I remember you mentioning that. I don't know much about angels, except I just assume they are servants and messengers of God and that some are fallen and act as agents of evil/darkness instead. The story of Jesus' birth involves an angel:
Quote:

Matthew 1
18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged in marriage to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and was unwilling to disgrace her publicly, he resolved to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.”


Quote:

I dont underestimate the value of Bible and Christian beliefs. I do agree that there is some truth in the Bible which can lead sincere people to ultimate truth.

Thank you for saying that. I see the human pursuit of truth somewhat like being in a stream with lots of rocks to step on so that you won't fall down and get swept backward by the current. Different rocks may come from different sources/religions/philosophies/etc. and some rocks may be more stable or slippery or bigger or smaller than others, but ultimately we all have to find our way upstream, sometimes getting swept backward, some giving up and just letting the current sweep them downstream until they finally realize they have to muster up strength again. I don't know if it is possible to ever give up completely and give up on the struggle, because I think there may always be a worse state farther downstream to motivate you to begin struggling toward the light again.

HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 11:17 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
There is nothing, not the Bible nor the Quran nor any other text, that provides a direct connection with God. Any text can be misinterpreted in an unholy way. All the scriptures and teachers/preachers/imams/prophets/etc. including Jesus, do is bring people to Holy Spirit so they can connect with God and serve Him directly.


I disagree respectfully. Thats where our differences are. I believe God knows His creation and He has given us Divine guidance in the form of Quran to live our lives. Prophets are sent as a role model and thats why I have issues with the way stories of prophets are told in Bible. Prophets are best of the humankind and they show us how to put Divine guidance into practice and they also illustrate the Divine message for us.

livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 12:04 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

I disagree respectfully. Thats where our differences are. I believe God knows His creation and He has given us Divine guidance in the form of Quran to live our lives. Prophets are sent as a role model and thats why I have issues with the way stories of prophets are told in Bible. Prophets are best of the humankind and they show us how to put Divine guidance into practice and they also illustrate the Divine message for us.

I think we can learn from others, but when you read about or observe someone who is a role model, how do you know what is good or not about them except by revelation through Holy Spirit?

Let me give an example that should be very clear. Sometimes when we are young, we idolize people who are not actually good people, but we think they are good because they are popular. You could say that the devil misleads us with such people and their popularity, but somewhere inside us there was a search for goodness that (mis)led us to admiring that person as a role model.

Now, at some point it was revealed to us that there are flaws in our earlier role models and thus that there is something better to be sought. We may even realize at some point that God and divinity are beyond this world completely, so we can never expect to find absolute perfection in this world, because otherwise there would be nothing better about God and heaven than the best of this world.

So if you come to realize that God and heaven are always going to be necessarily better than anything in this fallen creation, then the question is whether to disdain everything that's ever been revealed to us as a role model in the past, or whether to love/accept all those stepping stones for what they are; i.e. revelations from Holy Spirit that were helpful in guiding us along our path.

So whether it is the Bible/Jesus or Quran/Mohamed or other stepping stones helping people go in the right direction, I think we should honor God and Holy Spirit for making so many pathways to Truth, tributaries that lead to the one true river, you might say. Ultimately, I hope you will admit that when we transcend this world to meet God in the hereafter, that there will be truth that surpasses anything we've been able to know in this life. It doesn't dishonor any scripture or holy person to say that God's Holy Spirit ultimately transcends them all. It's simply a fact that if higher power is always higher than all else, that there can be nothing knowable to us as humans that is the absolute highest Truth. We just have to keep our orientation in the right direction and continue to seek Truth in whatever ways it is further revealed to us.

Thank you for your honest responses, even where we disagree. Blessings.
0 Replies
 
Bee Leave
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 03:43 pm
@DannyR634,
How do you know this?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Oct, 2019 09:39 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

Do you admit to any inclination on your part to put down people who believe in God?


Sorry if someone come into an open area of the internet and try to sell his or her idea of a supernatural being he or she should expect to be challenge.

That by itself is not putting down someone other then just stating the fact that for some reason of upbringing most likely he or she have a irrational belief.
0 Replies
 
 

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