How can a good God allow suffering

@Leadfoot,

I love the quote you mention about Jesus PBUH. Jesus PBUH did say love the God with all your heart, mind and soul and love others as you lover yourself but do you think this statement alone is enough to live your life in the way God wants?

It is impossible to show the servitude without the absence of the guidance. If we don’t follow the proper guidance of Allah/God then how would we complete the mission for which we were created? To complete this mission we must follow and apply Divine laws in our daily life.

Jesus came to fulfill the Jewish law and he practiced Jewish law.

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Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mathew 5:17-20)

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And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Mathew 19:17)

If you truly love Jesus that try to live the way He lived and the way all other prophets lived. For example there are numerous occasion mentioned in Bible when prophets prayed with their faces on ground.

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Genesis 17:3 "And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,"

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Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"

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Matthew 19:16-17, when the man called Prophet Jesus(Peace be upon him) ‘good’, saying, “Good teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Prophet Jesus replied,
“Why do you call me good? No One Is Good But One, That Is, God.”

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Matthew 26:39 "And he (Jesus) went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

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Matthew 17:6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

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Mark 14:32 “And they went to a place which was called Gethsemane; and he [Jesus] said to his disciples, ‘Sit Here, While I Pray.’

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Luke 5:16, “But he withdrew to the wilderness and prayed.”

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1 Kings 18:42 "And he (Elijah) cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees."

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Exodus 34:8 "And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped."

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Numbers 16:20-22 "And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"

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Numbers 20:6 "And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces..."

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Joshua 5:14 "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"

Who pray like that today? Muslims? Because they love all prophet not just in so-called faith but with actions.

Every action of a Muslim's life is governed by God's laws. We sleep, eat, drink, work and do everything in our lives is based on the Divine laws told by Allah. It keeps Allah in my heart all the time and I know He watches everything I do and hears anything I say and knows anything which crosses my mind. The level of God consiousness I am referring to does not come with out following the Divine laws.

Anyways the point I wanted to make was that when one reads OT we see one needs to follow that Divine laws and Jesus PBUH himself shows that by doing in his life. In NT, Paul gets rid of Divine laws. Thats a huge change in theology which is not from Jesus PBUH but by Paul.

Similarly, in OT God is purely one. There is no holy spirit and Jesus mentioned as god but when one goes to NT, Christian scholars impose the triune God which is against the very first commandment. If that's not a contradiction then I am not sure what else you consider as contradiction.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

I think the world would be a better place if most people kept what they believe to themselves.

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@HabibUrrehman,

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@Leadfoot,
I love the quote you mention about Jesus PBUH. Jesus PBUH did say love the God with all your heart, mind and soul and love others as you lover yourself but do you think this statement alone is enough to live your life in the way God wants?

That's what he said. Should I believe differently?

Not that I am minimizing how this might be done. He also said 'ye must be born again' in order to live that goal. This also I believe.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I think the world would be a better place if most people kept what they believe to themselves.

Then they might not help pass laws/rules hurtful to others based on the knowledge the others are infidels/non believers.

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@izzythepush,

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@Leadfoot,
I think the world would be a better place if most people kept what they believe to themselves.

Then do as you believe.

But this is a very odd place to do that.

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@edgarblythe,

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Then they might not help pass laws/rules hurtful to others

This sounds like the currently in Vogue - 'Micro Aggression' nonsense. Or do you have something more concrete in mind?

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@Leadfoot,

Sez you. I think this is the best place for that, it helps one be more objective.

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@Leadfoot,

Laws that discriminate against LGBT people hardly count as micro aggression.

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@HabibUrrehman,

HabibUrrehman wrote:

There is a 3rd scenario which you did not consider. God is one and the way of life he chose for us is also one.

Didn't you read when I posted the following?:

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I personally believe the latter, that there are different paths to the same universal truth. The reason I can believe this is because I believe that everything in the creation is fundamentally imperfect relative to its/our perfect creator. So everyone is sinful to the extent that we're not completely perfect(ed) yet, and so we have to accept that while many of us may be on the right track and have true insights in various ways, no one can have already reached perfection before joining God in heaven.

I do believe that there is indeed a single universal Truth, but there are different paths to reaching it. Everyone who is trying to live correctly is confronted with problems of the this world that obstruct achievement of the ideal.

For example, let's say it is revealed to you that agricultural living is divine and that permacultural land-management provides the most sustainable means for humans to feed themselves while simultaneously stewarding environmental resources in the most beneficial way.

So you decide you want to pursue an agricultural/permacultural way of life to honor God, but then you run into obstacles such as you can't afford enough land to grow everything for yourself, or you need tools, etc. which you can't make yourself and so you need money; or you would have to move far from your family to get land, or you realize that you living agriculturally/permaculturally on your own isn't going to save the planet from all the other people who are living unsustainably, so you decide it is better for you to develop a better way of living within the paradigm of industrial consumerism instead of trying to create a permacultural island in the midst of a global economy.

As long as you are putting in your best effort to honor God in your decision-making and actions, you are doing right by God, no? Can you say that there is only one way to live that honors God and any deviation from that is failure? We all sin in the sense that none of us has achieved a perfect world yet, even if we have gotten ourselves right with God by accepting salvation/redemption and the necessity of observing/confessing/repenting sin in prayer/communion with Him.

Another example is marriage and family. Celibacy provides a path to higher spirituality for those who can bear it, but marriage provides another path, which results in more spiritual strain because of the stresses that come with familial responsibilities and difficulties; but there is also an honorable path involving marriage. There is one Truth and one way to live, but there are different ways of achieving that one path depending on what specific circumstances you find yourself in. E.g. a priest who chooses celibacy is doing the right thing in his circumstances, but if a married person would shirk familial/marital responsibilities to live like a priest, that would not be right.

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If one religion believes that Jesus was a false prophet ( that's what Jews think), another maintains he is God ( Christians), and yet another that he was a human specially chosen to be a prophet (Islam), how can they all be true? Jesus PBUH, must inevitably be one of the three things mentioned above, and all three statements cannot be correct. Therefore, as only one of these statements can be correct, whichever is established as true determines that the others must then be considered as false.

No, because a person only becomes false when they reject Jesus after fully understanding what they are rejecting and/or intentionally avoiding/closing themselves off to discovering the truth. So if a Jew is faithful to Holy Spirit and cannot yet reconcile the truth of Jesus with their conscience, how could they honestly confess faith in Jesus to God? If a person is in full pursuit of truth, they are doing their best and honoring what is revealed to them in their path.

Remember, blasphemy of Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin, so if you are truly/sincerely putting effort into achieving right thinking and living and you haven't yet grasped acceptance of Christ, then how have you failed? What's more, if you truly believe that Christ is a false prophet and you accepted Him on that basis, wouldn't that be in conflict with your conscience and thus your submission to Holy Spirit?

Ultimately, all prophets are servants of Holy Spirit because Holy Spirit is nothing more or less than the spirit of God in our midst. Arguing about what is God and what isn't God doesn't help with submission to God, unless it does. If all it helps you do is reject things that you should be studying to support your submission, then it is impeding submission, no?

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I would encourage you to look into the thread (link below) where I am discussing why Islam is the only true religion.

I may read the thread, but I can already tell you that if your intent is to demonize other religious paths, I don't think you are helping God help anyone get closer to Him. Anytime someone discovers a true truth, through study of a text, meditation/contemplation, or whatever; that is a step in the right direction because no truth can be true except because God wills it. So if someone discovers a false truth, then it is good if they discover that it is false, but until they do, it is impossible to force them to abandon it except by trying to help them see the light otherwise. We are not supposed to judge people for false beliefs, only attempt to help them see the light of their error.

You may honestly believe that Christians are misled in studying the crucifixion as part of Jesus' teachings, but you may also be misled in your belief. All anyone can do is maintain steadfast faith in pursuing true revelation and accept that whatever we understand to be the truth at a given moment is what we've been granted, and there is always more truth to come in this world, i.e. because we can never know the full, perfect Truth until we get beyond the trappings and obstructions of this fallen world.

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@livinglava,

Religions are somewhat different. Religions are a form of ultimate nationalism, and Nationalism, in its purest forms, requires to have ENEMIES. Thats why (IMHO) most religions spend time deprecating all other religions. (Islam and Christianity both believe that they are singly "The only TRUE way ). The only reason Jews dont get involved is because they dont believe on a heaven or hell so they dont sell promises of heavenly real-estate.

One of the reasons I became a disbeliever in anything spiritual or spiritually driven.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Religions are somewhat different. Religions are a form of ultimate nationalism, and Nationalism, in its purest forms, requires to have ENEMIES. Thats why (IMHO) most religions spend time deprecating all other religions. (Islam and Christianity both believe that they are singly "The only TRUE way ). The only reason Jews dont get involved is because they dont believe on a heaven or hell so they dont sell promises of heavenly real-estate.

One of the reasons I became a disbeliever in anything spiritual or spiritually driven.

What you are doing is what many people do, which is to reduce religion to collective egotism. Collective egotism is also what drives nationalism, sports 'teamism,' and so forth. It is the natural tribalizing instinct that humans share with other species, which is an extension of the natural inclination to conflict and fight against enemies to establish ones own territorial dominance by destroying/subjugating others.

There is, however, a higher spiritual awareness that is at the heart of religion, which is that the entire creation and all humans can and should be in harmony with God the father. Higher religion recognizes that egotism, including collective/group egotism, is a deviation from full submission to God, and that the goal of religion shouldn't be to conquer and subjugate others except to the extent we are supposed to be "our brother's keepers," meaning we are supposed to help our brothers and sisters who have fallen to egotism rise up out of it. As the Christmas song says, "joyful all ye nations rise, join the triumph of the skies."

So no religion is immune from being hijacked by collective egotism, just as no flag is immune from being abused as a rallying symbol for fascism. The US flag, for example, may be meant to represent a republic (self)-governed by individual liberty; but that can't prevent fascism from appropriating it as a symbol of global imperialism enforced by military might.

You have to realize that the spirit that people bring to things like nations, religions, sports, etc. are determined by other factors besides some essential aspect of the nation/religion/sport they're inhabiting. E.g. there's nothing inherent about Germany that resulted in nazi fascism, or about the US that can prevent something similar from happening. Likewise, there's nothing about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or any other religion that can prevent people from making their symbols into rallying flags for fascism. Fascism appropriates whatever symbols it can to organize people into collective identity groups that make enemies of others for the sake of claiming victory for those who identify with the in-group.

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@livinglava,

sounds great, but Im not a customer.
Why are religions heavily concerned about the "True Way to the Light" rather than accepting , as you earlier stated."many paths to the same truth"

Im afraid that , the Crusades, Inquisitions, Reformations, Pogroms, Final Solutions, and Holocausts have some devied followers based upon their own sacred worldviews.

We have a few here on A2K.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Why are religions heavily concerned about the "True Way to the Light" rather than accepting , as you earlier stated."many paths to the same truth"

Sufism does.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

sounds great, but Im not a customer.
Why are religions heavily concerned about the "True Way to the Light" rather than accepting , as you earlier stated."many paths to the same truth"

Those are not contradictory claims. There can be different paths to the same universal truth, while also being many paths that deviate from that one universal Truth.

When people get attached to the idea that there can be multiple paths, it is usually because they are in denial of the singularity of universal Truth.

Think of it this way: if you knew there were different paths through the mountains to a nearby village, you could tell people that but it wouldn't be the same as telling them that every path leads to that village and that no paths lead in circles, or to the cliff, or to the angry bears' den, or that some paths are longer and/or harder than others, etc. etc.

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Im afraid that , the Crusades, Inquisitions, Reformations, Pogroms, Final Solutions, and Holocausts have some devied followers based upon their own sacred worldviews.

Have you ever considered that even if those atrocities had not occurred, others would have taken their place because the fundamental causes of them go beyond religion, nationalism, or any other cultural expression that is used to give them shape and identity?

You could just as easily attribute such things to the failure to sufficiently adopt/practice religion. If everyone lived completely right, why would there be violence among humans at all?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

most religions declare exclusive ownership to "truth".
Raised a Catolic we were mindswabbed to use the term "non Catholic" to all of the rest of the Christian sects.
Most of the other Christian sects that traced their histories back to the Reformation, declaer that Catholicism isnt even Christianity.

Ive always found all these familial infights kinda funny since their mostly based based on who's truth would pevail in Jesuus' eyes.

I love horror and good ghost stories. Do I believe em? naaah.

I find the Abrahamic stories sort of the same. Ripping yarns but not much behind em. I try to find my light elswhere.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

most religions declare exclusive ownership to "truth".
Raised a Catolic we were mindswabbed to use the term "non Catholic" to all of the rest of the Christian sects.
Most of the other Christian sects that traced their histories back to the Reformation, declaer that Catholicism isnt even Christianity.

The Reformation occurred in response to abuses occurring among church clergy who were selling indulgences. Martin Luther published his 95 theses to clarify that salvation occurred through 'faith alone' and thus couldn't be sold by opportunists trying to warp Christian doctrine for profit.

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Ive always found all these familial infights kinda funny since their mostly based based on who's truth would pevail in Jesuus' eyes.

No one 'prevails' in Jesus' or God's eyes. Romans 5:8 says,

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But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Christianity is simply about forgiveness and salvation from sin. The only sense in which you can 'prevail' is by admitting you are a sinner and accepting salvation.

Of course there are lots of little issues such as whether you have to confess and repent your sins to a priest or directly to God in prayer; or whether the Eucharist/communion should be viewed as a symbol of the last supper to remember it or as literally being the body and blood of Christ, etc. but those debates are sort of like debating whether to wear to sleep in a tent or hammock when hiking. The goal/destination of the hike remains the same.

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I love horror and good ghost stories. Do I believe em? naaah.

Well, keep studying science and the patterns of energy waves that resonate through various states of matter. You may one day find yourself making a case for "spirits in the material world," as the song goes.

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I find the Abrahamic stories sort of the same. Ripping yarns but not much behind em. I try to find my light elswhere.

There is wisdom in those stories. You can dismiss them out of prejudice, as I used to do as well, but as long as you dismiss them you won't be able to understand what they mean and why they've been passed down for so many generations over the centuries.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Thats a perfect example of what I meant. The development of a religions testament usually doesnt occur at time of inceptions. It occurs gradually. The Reformation spurred many "protestant" sects that used the Bible quotes as their centers that they gradually moved away from Catholicisms own teachings. The first schisms were NOT Reformational, theywere geographical(Orthodoxy) or Governmentally introduced (Anglican) (. Later on, as all the Protestant sects began their missions, Catholicism was clearly focused as the "Iniquitous Roman Whore" . Then, as more sects broke away,Baptists v Ana Baptists, etc. It became common practice for all these newer sects to "eat their young" by begiing doctrinal fights AMONG THEMSELVES. Even Anabaptists started break off sects among themselves based upon a simple thing of " Christ washing his disciples feet" on the night before his crucifixion. You can recite Timothy 1,2 or Ezekial, or several other books an found a religion based on one phrase. Such religions, whether you agree or not, have developed a sense of "exclusivity" in which their sect is always right and all the others are full of ****..
NO THANKS. I prefer to follow thing I can argue about and develop evidence and facts in support or denial . I dont know one Abrahamic religion that has evidence and proof of anything.
Even Islam makes believe its science was proven in the Koran, When all it is , is a mad dash for supportive phrases that , like Fundamental Christians (another bunch of winners), "quote mine" to "PROVE" that the earth is only 4004 yrs old an that "dinosaurs lived among humans"

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Well, keep studying science and the patterns of energy waves that resonate through various states of matter. You may one day find yourself making a case for "spirits in the material world," as the song goes.

OH WHEE> I thought I heard em all by now, but this is a new one to me.(Ive been a scientist in practice of chemistry, and geochemistry for ovr 41 yers now. Have they started a new discipline ?

Its still Rock n Roll to me.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Thats a perfect example of what I meant. The development of a religions testament usually doesnt occur at time of inceptions. It occurs gradually. The Reformation spurred many "protestant" sects that used the Bible quotes as their centers that they gradually moved away from Catholicisms own teachings. The first schisms were NOT Reformational, theywere geographical(Orthodoxy) or Governmentally introduced (Anglican) (. Later on, as all the Protestant sects began their missions, Catholicism was clearly focused as the "Iniquitous Roman Whore" . Then, as more sects broke away,Baptists v Ana Baptists, etc. It became common practice for all these newer sects to "eat their young" by begiing doctrinal fights AMONG THEMSELVES. Even Anabaptists started break off sects among themselves based upon a simple thing of " Christ washing his disciples feet" on the night before his crucifixion. You can recite Timothy 1,2 or Ezekial, or several other books an found a religion based on one phrase. Such religions, whether you agree or not, have developed a sense of "exclusivity" in which their sect is always right and all the others are full of ****..
NO THANKS. I prefer to follow thing I can argue about and develop evidence and facts in support or denial . I dont know one Abrahamic religion that has evidence and proof of anything.
Even Islam makes believe its science was proven in the Koran, When all it is , is a mad dash for supportive phrases that , like Fundamental Christians (another bunch of winners), "quote mine" to "PROVE" that the earth is only 4004 yrs old an that "dinosaurs lived among humans"

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Well, keep studying science and the patterns of energy waves that resonate through various states of matter. You may one day find yourself making a case for "spirits in the material world," as the song goes.

OH WHEE> I thought I heard em all by now, but this is a new one to me.(Ive been a scientist in practice of chemistry, and geochemistry for ovr 41 yers now. Have they started a new discipline ?

Its still Rock n Roll to me.

You don't understand what you're criticizing, so you're asserting information that is tangentially related yet not relevant.

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@izzythepush,

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I think this is the best place for that, it helps one be more objective.

See, you broke your own rule right off the bat.

I come here to see what other people think and compare it with what I think. And so do you, if you were honest about it. I can look up objective facts elsewhere, this is definitely not the place for that, no mater what the site name says.

Sounds like you would like Quora better than A2K if you really are looking for objective answers.

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@izzythepush,

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Laws that discriminate against LGBT people hardly count as micro aggression.

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Agreed. I think all the 'group protection (or group advocacy) laws' are patently absurd. Either we have individual rights under the law or we don’t. Americans are utter fools for advocating such special group laws and the LGBT community are equal offenders.

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