54
   

How can a good God allow suffering

 
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 07:49 am
I sometimes try to stand in the other fellow's shoes in an argument/discussion - it's hard to do, but I find it a useful thought exercise anyway.

So I try to imagine myself as an atheist. The very first thing that occurs to me is asking myself why I would even be in an argument with a theist/Christian/believer-in-fairy-tale-beings, etc. I mean, if I am sanguine in my belief that no such beings exist, why would it be in my interest to try to convince someone who believes to... not believe?

If I as a liberated thinking man, free of the bonds of belief in anything supernatural think the person I am arguing with would be better off being like me - then I could see trying to convince them as sort of a humanitarian thing. You know - liberate their minds and make them happier, and all that.

If I see myself as a crusader against the evils of organized religion and all the harm its done to mankind, then I could see myself trying to enlighten someone that their beliefs are screwing up humanity.

But short of those - if I see myself and the other guy as just two people who differ in how they think, I don't see myself as motivated to engage in argument about it.
If my neighbor (in my thought exercise scenario) thinks there is a God, and is otherwise an okay person, why would I want to mess with that?
I don't know.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 07:57 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Because it is a question in an area you have no experience or interest in.

I disagree. If the person asking the question doesn't specify that it is an "academic" question only, intended as an analysis of a particular document, then it's implicitly a question about the real world, in which we all have equal experience and interest. And I think it is highly likely that this question is not being posed in a purely academic interest to understand a particular document.

Leadfoot wrote:
Your 'answers' are an attempt to de-legitimize the questioner for the purposes of your own entertainment or gratification. It's just ignorant ranting for juvenile purposes.

Bullshit.

Leadfoot wrote:
Even if you aren't certain God exists, the OP is a legitimate philosophical question that has been asked by great thinkers all through the ages.

It's only a legitimate philosophical question within the parameter of whatever document or viewpoint it is posed from, and it should be clearly stated that way. If it had been, I would have responded very differently, and probably not responded at all since I have no expertise in most of that subject matter.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 08:07 am
Quote:
Your 'answers' are an attempt to de-legitimize the questioner for the purposes of your own entertainment or gratification. It's just ignorant ranting for juvenile purposes.


Ah! An answer to my question!

Leadfoot, do you see any deeper, darker possible motives someone might have for feeling compelled to trash faith anytime it raises its head?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 08:20 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
Leadfoot, do you see any deeper, darker possible motives someone might have for feeling compelled to trash faith anytime it raises its head?

I'm not trying to hide anything. I think Faith is a bad thing.

If the person who started this thread wants to take the question to a Christian forum then I'm sure it won't be challenged at its core. But this is an open forum.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 08:36 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

snood wrote:
Leadfoot, do you see any deeper, darker possible motives someone might have for feeling compelled to trash faith anytime it raises its head?

I'm not trying to hide anything. I think Faith is a bad thing.

If the person who started this thread wants to take the question to a Christian forum then I'm sure it won't be challenged at its core. But this is an open forum.


You are a human being with both conscious and unconscious motives.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 08:41 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
You are a human being with both conscious and unconscious motives.

Aren't we all.
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 09:23 am
@rosborne979,
Their attachment to this particular god is emotional. I don't think the reasons can be explained in an objective way. I know, I was one of them. I also think that belief in the supernatural is deeply ingrained in the human mind/psyche. People like we put reason first, but the supernatural always lurks just beneath the surface. It has to be controlled. That's why they say "There are no atheists in foxholes"!
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 09:26 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

snood wrote:
You are a human being with both conscious and unconscious motives.

Aren't we all.

Yes! Human behavior is sort of part and parcel of my vocation. Fascinating why people do what they do - or at least trying to decipher why. Well, at least it's fascinating to me. There are some who probably think that's all as obvious as the "fact" that there's no God.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 09:56 am
@snood,
snood wrote:
There are some who probably think that's all as obvious as the "fact" that there's no God.

I provided my logic for that "fact" above. To be more precise, I don't treat it as a "fact" so much as a "given". The idea that our daily experience is not over-run with all manner of magical beings and events is something we all take for granted every single day. This is the "given" condition which almost every person follows on a daily basis. We do not check the floor every morning when we get out of bed to make sure it's still solid, we take natural conditions as a given and we do NOT assume that magic has intervened. Therefor it seems very inconsistent to me that suddenly out of the pack comes a magical concept ("God") which some people take for granted; a special "given".
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 10:01 am
@rosborne979,
I love the way you expressed that.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 10:02 am
@rosborne979,
Do you admit to any inclination on your part to put down people who believe in God?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 10:40 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
I disagree. If the person asking the question doesn't specify that it is an "academic" question only, intended as an analysis of a particular document, then it's implicitly a question about the real world, in which we all have equal experience and interest.
You are making assumptions or transferring your own preconceptions on the OP. It does not mention any 'document'. And since you have self identified as an atheist, by 'real world' we know that that does not include a 'God'. Therefore, you have no experience or credible interest in the thread.

Not saying you can't post in it, but if you do, then it is only reasonable that others might point out your motives which I stated before.

If you think theistic beliefs are bad or evil and saving people from their delusions, then bring your reasoned arguments to bear on that rather than childishly inserting 'there is no God' into the conversation. That will convince no one.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 10:50 am
@snood,
Quote:
Ah! An answer to my question!

Leadfoot, do you see any deeper, darker possible motives someone might have for feeling compelled to trash faith anytime it raises its head?
Oh sure. My guess is that the most common motive of atheist posts in theistic threads is to seek reassurance. In spite of all their certainty, they can never be sure they have made the right call on God's existence. If they can stir up some shallow reply like a bible quote without some reasoning behind it, then the atheist can once again feel comfortable that God is for ignorant fools. That only lasts for so long though, because the doubts always keep creeping back in.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 10:54 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
The idea that our daily experience is not over-run with all manner of magical beings and events is something we all take for granted every single day.
The rats in the lab have no idea about the designers of the maze they are running through neither do they know the purpose for which they are made to seek the cheese at the end.

The only difference is that it IS possible for us to know. Not all will though.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 12:29 pm
@Leadfoot,
Wrong. Atheists pop up on these threads for the same reasons believers pop up on atheists threads. To argue for a viewpoint. I personally on occasion visit these threads because Christians have been demanding I accept their viewpoint and using their faith to degrade the quality of learning in science and schools. Before ever I argued religion, I had Christians in my face making demands. Not persuasion, but every cheap trick of coercion. In short, I make my view known, these days, out of self defense from the ones who want to put animal crackers inside my head.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 01:29 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:
Do you admit to any inclination on your part to put down people who believe in God?

My intention is to ridicule the belief, not the person. Do you agree there is a difference between the two? I've been on A2K a long time and I don't recall ever making my arguments personal.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 01:35 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Quote:
I disagree. If the person asking the question doesn't specify that it is an "academic" question only, intended as an analysis of a particular document, then it's implicitly a question about the real world, in which we all have equal experience and interest.
You are making assumptions or transferring your own preconceptions on the OP. It does not mention any 'document'. And since you have self identified as an atheist, by 'real world' we know that that does not include a 'God'. Therefore, you have no experience or credible interest in the thread.

Your logic is flawed. So it follows that I don't agree with your conclusions. And only I know my inner motives. So you can draw any conclusions you like, but I will be the only one who really knows how accurate they are.

Leadfoot wrote:
If you think theistic beliefs are bad or evil and saving people from their delusions, then bring your reasoned arguments to bear on that rather than childishly inserting 'there is no God' into the conversation.

I already posted my reasoned arguments. So far, nobody has addressed them. All anyone has challenged me on is my right to enter this conversation.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 01:40 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
The idea that our daily experience is not over-run with all manner of magical beings and events is something we all take for granted every single day.
The rats in the lab have no idea about the designers of the maze they are running through neither do they know the purpose for which they are made to seek the cheese at the end.

The only difference is that it IS possible for us to know. Not all will though.

That's not an answer. It's just another way of saying you believe in magic and that you do not understand the world (like the Rats). We already know this about you as you've expressed it before.
0 Replies
 
rrasmussen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 05:14 pm
@edgarblythe,
What lead you to that conclusion?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 May, 2016 06:34 pm
@rrasmussen ,
Have you read this entire thread?
0 Replies
 
 

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