How can a good God allow suffering

Hi my brother in humanity ( I don't even know your name)

First I want to make it clear that my intention is not to put you down. I am sincerely trying to help and is willing to accept the truth if you present that with logic. If you expect me to have a blind faith then I am sorry I can't do that and I hope that you also take similar approach when it comes to your salvation.

Coming back to your question; I did not try to avoid your question. I only want to know what is your source of information and is that source reliable? If you have to convince someone who is not Christians, how would you prove that you are on the right path? I hope you will answer that question with logic and good reasoning after my reply because it is very important for both of us.

I believe in the stories of Adam & Eve, Job, Moses (peace be upon them all)and stories of all other prophets as told in Quran. These stories are also told in Bible and I disagree with those stories. Muslims and Christians normally don't discuss these differences because our focus in always on Jesus PBUH. But let me present the story of Job for example as told in Bible and in Quran and then I will explain the difference.

Story of Job in Bible
The Story of Job in the Bible is one of a Prophet being severely tested. The story begins with God highly praising Job for his righteousness. God says to Satan:

Satan proceeds to challenge God, stating that the only reason Job is upright is because Job has a good life, with a large family and plenty of wealth. Satan predicts that, if God were to test Job ‘properly’, then Job would “curse God”:

God allows Satan to test Job by afflicting his health:

Once the trials commence, Job fails to remain patient and proceeds to complain about his sorry state, even going so far as to blaspheme against God numerous times:





We are told that a man called Elihu, who had witnessed Job’s tirade against God, is angered by Job’s blasphemy:

Elihu asks Job to listen to him so that he might impart some wisdom:

Elihu is very direct with Job; he accuses him of speaking without knowledge, lacking wisdom, and showing conduct that has been like that of a wicked man:

After chastising Job, Elihu proceeds to give him the correct insight into his condition:


The Bible goes on to tell us that God eventually intervenes and Job repents from his sins. He is forgiven by God and has his full health restored. Now, the way that the story unfolds is highly problematic for a number of reasons.
First, the Bible describes Job as a righteous man, that he is “blameless and upright”. Now, it’s very easy to be happy with God when times are good. True piety, however, is being happy with God when one has nothing. Showing gratitude to God and remaining steadfast in the face of trials is a sign of strong faith. So, from this point of view, hasn’t Satan effectively “one-upped” God – Satan challenged God when he predicted that Job would curse God, and so haven’t Job’s blasphemies proven Satan to be correct?
Secondly, how is it that the young man Elihu, who, unlike Job, is not a Prophet, demonstrates more wisdom in religious matters than a Prophet of God? Recall that the Bible stated that there was “no one on earth” like Job, yet this young man seems to possess more insight into Job’s situation than Job himself.

Story of Job in Quran

The Qur’an resolves all of these inconsistencies and issues in just a few short verses. Rather than complaining about his situation to other people, Job calls on God for help. Notice that Job doesn’t blaspheme against God; rather, he blames Satan for his hardship:



God rewards Job’s unwavering faith by healing him and replacing everything that Satan took away from him:



God compliments Job for his patience in the face of such trials:


Job’s righteous conduct in the Qur’an is exactly what we would expect of a Prophet of God. Moreover, we learn a great lesson, that no matter what trials we face, no matter how severe an affliction we are tested with, we should always remain patient, for in the end the righteous are rewarded.

Conclusion of Job's story in Bible & Quran and why is that important

We can conclude that both the Quran and the Bible define Prophets as those who were sent in order to bring mankind closer to God. Both the Quran and the Bible paint a very noble, honorable picture of the concept of Prophethood. So, we should expect God’s Prophets to embody these ideals by being the best people in character, with their behavior and lives representing a practical example for us to follow in order to come closer to God.
There is a lot of overlap between the Quran and the Bible when it comes to the stories of the Prophets, with both Scriptures sharing many similar events and themes. However, when it comes to the character and conduct of the Prophets, the Scriptures are radically different.

This is just one example and I have many other examples of how prophets are described in Bible and Quran. Take some time read stories of David, Noah, Aaron and see if you can find any problem in the way these prophets are described in Bible?

This has been a long response I guess to your question but hope it helps to see my point. There may be some truth in Bible but if there is so much corruption from humans to fulfill their material goals then one can't distinguish what is right and what is wrong. This corruption has led you to believe in triune God, even though you say you believe in one God but you worship Jesus who is creation of God not god. You sai Jesus, Holy spirit and God are in perfect harmony but your own bible tells us that they are not in harmony. Jesus did not want to die but God still wanted him to die? Thats not harmony.

Please dont take me wrong. I still like the fact that you do believe in God but you are on the wrong path. Read the Bible and it should lead you to the truth. I read it several times and that how I knew that it can't be word of God. I knoew God does exist and He can't leave us without any guidance and that when I looked into Islam and found ansers to all my questions.

Now you may ask what is source of my knowledge and how authentic that source is. If you have been reading my previous posts then it should be clear that my source of knowledge is Quran. A book which has been preserved for over 1400 years and does not go against any established scientific facts. I emphasize on established scientific facts and not on theories because scientific theories keep changing until theories are proven to be fact with scientific methodology. Quran not only agrees with established scientific facts, it's prophecies has been proven to be right so far. I did not find any error in the description of historical events in Quran either. More importantly, Quran does not contradict its teachings. Muslims believe in one God and that's the message you will find throughout the Quran. There is no ambiguity on the basic theology. Once I know that Quran is 100% correct and preserved, then I believe in everything stated inside the Quran. This includes to believe in Allah and all prophets including Jesus PBUH. This includes to believe that Jesus was not crucified and Allah took him up alive.

I request you to read Quran at your own and I am sure it will help you to see the truth. In the end I want to state again that my intention is not to spread hate or create divisions. If you choose to believe in Jesus then that's your choice and you are responsible for your actions. My goal is only to convey the message. You are free t accept or reject it. No matter what you do, you are still my brother in humanity and I have no right to hate you just because you made a choice different than mine.

You are absolutely right. That's why I hold on to Quran which strictly ask us to be Muslims and not be divided.

Quran says:





Regardless of these groupings and differences, All Muslim read the same Quran, believe in the same God, believe in all prophets including Prophet Muhammad PBUH as last prophet, believe in the day of Judgment . All Muslims pray facing the same direction and all Muslim pray in same language (Arabic). All Muslim go to same place for Hajj (Pilgrimage). I focus on what can unite us and not on what divides us.

Even within a family, no two people can have same likes and dislikes. We are all different and difference of opinion is some times good for critical thinking. As long as all Muslims agree and believe in fundamental tenants of Islam, its all good.

What Muslim do need to learn and practice is tolerance to other people's views. Tolerance needs to be practiced not only with in different sects of Islam but also with people who believe in other ideologies/religions.

Allah says in Quran:







A true Muslim should only remind people to return to the right track and should not force his/her views on other people. Allah only ordered us to convey the message and that's all. Once a person gets the message, he/she has full freedom to accept it or reject it and one should not get upset with whatever decision others make.

Talking about tolerance, I think I should also point out that Islam may tolerate anything but it teaches zero tolerance for injustice, oppression, and violation of the rights of other human beings. Allah says in Holy Quran:

Izzy said: "Religion is the Devil's best invention"

More accurately, Religion is the Devil's best tool.

I don't understand why you keep repeating what I've already agreed to. Yes, there is too much coherence in this reality for it to have been created by committee. There is but one.

I know you think Islam is an exception, but as I said, I would not accept any known organized religion. The Bible verse saying " Let every man work out his own salvation." Is priceless advice no matter where it came from.

I thought it was a pretty famous quotation, but when I tried googling it I couldn't find it.

I did not coin it, and I don't want to take credit for another's insight. I'm not 100% sure but I think I read it in this.



It's a book on Gnosticism, and explains it very well. The writers are nothing like Greatest Iam, who I don't really have any time for.

Even when it is true?



I agree with the verse but you are taking it in wrong context. If you believe there is God who created you, do you think that God would leave us without any guidance? If God have given us any guidance then we need to search for it. Read OT, NT, Quran, Geeta and any other religious books. Find our for yourself which one of those look to be guidance from God. There is nothing wrong to accept the truth even if it is an organized religion.

I will probably start a separate thread on the topic why true religion has to be one and consistent. We can discuss this further on that thread.

That's interesting, I thought most Christians believe in Bible because they think its word of God. If they already know its not 100% from God and is not 100% accurate then how they know what is accurate and what's not?

Anyways when I read Bible, I read it with this thought in my mind and very soon realized that it can't be the word of God.

I rather trust the words of God for guidance than the words of men.

That's what you believe. It's not what anyone else on this thread believes, so repeating it doesn't do your argument any good.

You'd be better off trying to explain why you feel it's the word of God.

About Bible? I don't believe that's word of God. Even Christian scholars can't prove that to anyone.

If you ask about Quran then yes I can make an attempt to prove that Quran is the word of Quran.

Nobody here has claimed the Bible is the word of God.

And Muslim scholars haven't proven the Quran is the word of God either. If they had everyone would be a Muslim.

What you have is an argument, now that argument may be compelling for many people but it's just an argument.

The main reason sensible Christians no longer believe the Bible is the word of God is because of thorough academic research by people who weren't religious.

That didn't happen straight away, and I doubt a similar study could be done with the Quran. I don't doubt the enormous amount of academic research by the faithful, but in order to get to the truth you've got to ask awkward questions and think unpopular things.

I don't think the Islamic World is ready for a load of infidels to do a thorough academic critique of the Quran.

Guidance comes from God and He guides those who sincerely ask for guidance. Even Prophets could not convince everyone to accept their message, that is why I said that I can make an attempt to prove Quran is the word of God. I did not say I can or Islamic scholars can. It will be easy for those who are sincere and searching for truth and will be like fairytale stories who don't want to believe.

I think we need to remember that this life is a test. There will always be battle between good and evil. There will always be people who will believe and disbelieve in Islam, that will not make Islam a false religion.

I have created a separate thread on this topic, link is below:

https://able2know.org/topic/534961-1#post-6910249

Feel free to discuss and comment. All the best!

The point I'm making is that secular scholars have crawled all over the Bible. It's been objectively researched.

I don't feel the same can be said about the Quran. I think secular scholars stay away from it because they don't want to upset certain elements.

I remember going to see the film The Message about the prophet, and the amount of negotiations needed before they were allowed to start filming were incredible.

That's how delicate things were, and still are. There doesn't seem to be any dispassionate objective debate on the Quran, the only group who study it that aren't believers are far right quote miners looking to put it all in a bad light.

I understand your point.


First point I want to make is that there are many people who are accepting Islam and they come from different backgrounds. Those who are not born as Muslim, look at Islam from different point of view and they do a much deeper research than one can imagine. Some of those converts spend their rest of the life just studying different sources of Islam. An overwhelming majority of them still remain Muslim and in fact their faith gets stronger with this research. Islam does not ask us to believe in things blindly. Research and critical thinking is essential part of Islam and that's what make Islam different from other religions.

Regarding Quran's authenticity, there are many researches by Non Muslims. Below are some links:

https://youtu.be/jowQond7_UE
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021
https://youtu.be/qOS6BTg03FQ
http://www.oldest.org/religion/qurans/

First link is interesting one. The oldest parchment of Quran was found in Birmingham and the research on that was done by Non-Muslim. The radio carbon dating estimates that it was written at the same time as Prophet Muhammad PBUH. The research also concluded that it is same as the Quran which we have today. Second link is on the same video but its more detailed.

Third link is view of a Non-Muslim scholar about Quran.
4th link is about some of the oldest copies of Quran with brief history and where these are located.

Muslims and non-Muslims have been involved in researches on Quran and its authenticity. These researches are not publicised in western media of course. Western media only focuses on attributing all negative things towards Islam and represents Islam as a threat to Western values.

Regarding asking open ended question about Quran and Islam, it is also very common. You can find so many debates on this topic where non-Muslims ask question about Islam and Muslim scholars do answer them. Below are some links if you want to watch:

https://youtu.be/y2iMrxN4NyE
https://youtu.be/amUQuewx3G8
https://youtu.be/9O5lQqZsd5g
https://youtu.be/uSwJuOPG4FI

These are just few links which I search by key words " Christian Muslim Debate" & "Islam vs Atheism debate." I am sure you can find many more links.

Regarding making movies on Prophet Muhammad PBUH, the world should know that Muslims see it as disrespect of Prophet PBUH. It is best to avoid these things so that we don't hurt anyone's feelings.

Have you not seen The Message? It's very good. The prophet is never shown, at one point you see the head of the animal he is riding, (sorry I can't remember what it is,) but that's it.

This is what the Wiki page says about production.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Message_(1976_film)

I have not watched it but since you have recommended it I will try to watch it.

I was a kid when I saw it. I didn't really know a thing about Islam beforehand. It did give a positive message. I remember feeling upset when one of the early followers was killed, he was a very likable character.

As am I. What I am trying to explain is that the spiritual value of information does not lie in how well they correspond to material historical events but in the Truths they convey.

I've given the simple example of the story of the boy who cried wolf because that is a widely-known story. Whether or not there was actually a boy who cried wolf that the story is based upon doesn't make a difference in understanding the meaning of the story, which is that if you repeatedly lie, people won't believe you when you're telling the truth, and problems may result. That story is True whether or not it corresponds with actual material events that occurred at some point in history.

Can you understand that? It has nothing to do with 'blind faith,' but rather with simply understanding the meaning of a story and accepting the spiritual Truth of it without getting distracted by issues of whether the story corresponds with actual historical events, whether it is internally coherent, etc. The point is to 'see the light' of the story, i.e. to gain wisdom.

I don't have time to respond to the rest of your post now, but it is interesting to read and I will try to respond to the rest of it later (feel free to remind me if I forget).

Ultimately I will say that there are different sources of true information and it is better not to compare them in terms of superiority and inferiority but rather to look at them all as messages from God and to take the information and attempt to interpret it to gain the most wisdom and ability to discern good from bad, righteousness from sin, Truth from falsity, etc.

In my mind, this is a relationship between every individual and Holy Spirit, which guides us from within as well as via externally-received information. Ultimately, we are in a process that goes beyond any single religious text. Just the fact that we are conversing as Christian and Muslim and agreeing in some ways and disagreeing in others means that God is showing us each new perspectives that help us refine the ones we already hold, even if it is just by strengthening our own positions relative to a different one we deem slightly misguided.

I believe everyone is on a different path to Truth, though there is ultimately only one Truth and one God. It is just a question of how each of us progresses in our process of salvation and sanctification from sin.

I did not mean to imply that there is no truth in Islam, nor any other religion. But if you are honest, you have to conceed that Islam demands compliance with all its dogma, regardless of one's own guidance from God.

On this point the Bible seems closer to what I think we have agreed, That
God/Allah's guidance will lead us to all truth rather than finding it in scripture. The Bible explicitly stated this, maybe the Qur'an does too. I haven't read the whole thing yet.

Christianity as it exists has the same problem. Reject the 'Trinity' and you're out, for one example.

Interesting, I'll check out the book & movie you mentioned. I didn't recognize the quote on Religion, 'tool' just seemed more appropriate.
I think religions are just men's various reactions to 'why am I here?' and the obvious truth that this was no accident.