51
   

How can a good God allow suffering

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jun, 2019 05:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Human evolution. https://www.livescience.com/32503-why-havent-all-primates-evolved-into-humans.html
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 12:44 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Habib, you have no clue how gods go about deciding upon their matters. You're like a worm who would try and understand what humans do.
HabibUrrehman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 08:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Also, we humans evolved from primates. That's the finding of science and anthropologists


The role of science is only to observe and describe the patterns that God places in His creation.  If scientific observation shows a pattern in the evolution of species over time that can be described as natural selection, this is not in itself unbelief.  It is only unbelief for a person to think that this evolution took place on its own, and not as a creation of God. 

Quote:
Does Islam believe in the Virgin Birth? | Interfaith forums
www.interfaith.org/community/threads/8638
Does Islam believe in the Virgin Birth Of Jesus? If so, did Mary contributed half of the genetic makeup in Jesus' DNA? And if that's the case, who's genetic code was the other half? Or even if Allah created Jesus wholly in Mary's womb, without the contribution of Mary's genetic code, who was Jesus' genetic code modeled from?

Virgin Birth of Mary is one of many thing which can't be proved from science because it is against the rules set by God for events to happen naturally. Anything that goes against the universal rules is called miracle. Quran compares Virgin birth of Jesus to that of Adam. If Allah can create Adam without father and mother, He can create Jesus without father. And these are miracles to show people the signs. Why do I believe in this? Because 80% of the scientific facts proved today were accurately described in Quran 1400 years ago. 100 years ago, may be 50% of scientific facts in Quran were proven by science and remaining 50% for neither proven nor rejected. Today the remaining 20% of the facts which science can't deny with confidence may be proven in years to come. As Quran says that Allah will show His signs to make things clear. Even if all signs are shown, not all people will believe just like many who did not believe on prophets even when they are given clear signs.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 08:58 am
@Olivier5,
Once again you have drifted from answering my simple question. I gave my arguments to prove that God has to be one. You could agree or disagree but with logical reasoning. Calling names is just attempting to run away from logical debate.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 09:45 am
@HabibUrrehman,
My point is that human logic is not apt to understand gods. Gods, if they exist, created human logic, so they are not subject to it.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 09:48 am
@Olivier5,
agreed !
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 10:08 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
My point is that human logic is not apt to understand gods. Gods, if they exist, created human logic, so they are not subject to it.


I agree that human logic is created by God. When God created us, He gave us wisdom to distinguish between good and bad. God also showed us two paths ( path of good and bad) through consciousness and that's the reason people feel bad when they do something bad and feel good when they do good things. If God will not give us power to think, see, hear and analyze things then it will be impossible to recognize our creator. God has given us all these powers to look around and understand that there is a creator of everything and that creator is one.

If I understand you right, I think you are hoping that God should show himself up and guide clearly to every human being so that we know for sure who God is and no one goes astray. If Allah willed that way then what is the point of our creation and life in this world? This life is a test and just like in a test you are not given a book to find answers, you have to use your senses given to you to reach to the conclusion. It is all built with in human system. There is an alarm system if we do something wrong and warns us that we should not have done it. Problem is that we constantly try to shut down this system. We need to listen to our own consciousness (internal programming system looking for signals to connect to our creator) and believe me it will not be hard to find God. After our test is over, everything will be as clear as it can be in an open book. We will find answers to all questions when our life is over.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 10:58 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
He gave us wisdom to distinguish between good and bad. God also showed us two paths ( path of good and bad) through consciousness and that's the reason people feel bad when they do something bad and feel good when they do good things.
Not true. Humans are just another species of animals on this planet. We reproduce the same way. Not all animal births are healthy physically or mentally. Good and bad are determined by the society in which we live. That's the reason why some cultures allowed cannibalism and slavery. There is no such thing as homosexual activity is sin; that's a man-made concept that's laughable at best, and in an attempt to control others. Most animals practice
homosexual acts. In other words, it's normal in animals. The brain is not a perfect tool; it depends on how it gets wired when we are born, and what happens during our lifetime. Many have mental disabilities that occur from birth through adulthood. I believe mental disability strikes one in every seven families.
Quote:
Prevalence of Mental Illness. Approximately 1 in 5 adults in the U.S. (46.6 million) experiences mental illness in a given year. Approximately 1 in 25 adults in the U.S. (11.2 million) experiences a serious mental illness in a given year that substantially interferes with or limits one or more major life activities.
Mental Health By the Numbers | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental ...
https://www.nami.org/learn-more/mental-health-by-the-numbers
In our social group, the genius in our group, a physicist, suffered from dementia. There is no guarantee how our brains will provide for us while alive. There is no god; thousands have been created throughout history by country and culture. The christian god is based on Greek and Egyptian mythology, and is one of the "young" ones. About 2,000 years old. I do not believe you are smarter than the scientists at the Smithsonian. http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 11:46 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Our capacity to reason is either evolved or designed to understand this world in which we live, not to understand gods or other worlds. If gods exist, their manner of thinking, their logic, is infinitely more sophisticated than ours. Therefore it is futile to try and apply our feeble human logic to gods. Gods understand what they do, I suppose, but we don't.

Therefore, any theology, including yours, is but a form of intellectual masturbation.

Man should cultivate his own garden. That's all he can do.

Love your God, Habib, submit to Him, but don't try and tie Him up in knots with your feeble human words.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 12:55 pm
@Olivier5,
I am speaking mostly based on Quran which is Divine book and without that Divine guidance I will not be able to comprehend attributes of God.

For example no one has seen Allah, no one has seen soul and no one has seen what happens after death. If these things were not mentioned in Quran and Hadith then it would have been impossible for me to say and comprehend anything which is unseen.

Your question is most likely going to be on Quran and its authenticity. I can absolutely convinced about that and can use reasoning to prove my point but only if you are interested. If not, I have my faith and you have yours.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 01:36 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Yes, to each his own faith, or lack thereof.

But I still think that even with Divine guidance you will never be able to comprehend the attributes of God. Wrong choice of word, meaning "to understand them completly". What you can possibly achieve, if you study scripture with good intent and an open mind rather than just read the words, is to apprehend some of God's attributes, that is to start to have a partial understanding of them.

The Quran is not the totality of God's knowledge, love and generosity. It's only a glimpse of it, signs given to men for what they can understand. Study it often, if you believe, but don't assume you finally exhausted all of its meaning(s), ever.

For instance, what do you think these verses mean?

Man was created of haste. I will show you My signs, so do not impatiently urge Me.
HabibUrrehman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 Jun, 2019 03:59 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
But I still think that even with Divine guidance you will never be able to comprehend the attributes of God. Wrong choice of word, meaning "to understand them completly". What you can possibly achieve, if you study scripture with good intent and an open mind rather than just read the words, is to apprehend some of God's attributes, that is to start to have a partial understanding of them.

The Quran is not the totality of God's knowledge, love and generosity. It's only a glimpse of it, signs given to men for what they can understand. Study it often, if you believe, but don't assume you finally exhausted all of its meaning(s), ever.

True and I will invite you to just read the attributes of God given in Quran. If you want I can go over those one by one every day. You are right that even with Divine guidance we humans can never comprehend God fully but you will definitely have a better understand by read and understanding the attributes of God in Quran. Those are more than enough to come to a conclusion that God is one and is all powerful, all knowledgeable, and able to be worshipped. I can't put all that in few words as Quran says that if all trees becomes pens and all oceans becomes ink, we will still not be able to full glorify the attributes of God.
Quote:
For instance, what do you think these verses mean?

Man was created of haste. I will show you My signs, so do not impatiently urge Me.


This is probably verse 37 for Chapter 21. I would like you to read from verse 30 to 40 to get the context. It is also important to know the background for verse 37 which was revealed at battle of Badr. Non believers were making fun of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and were asking him to bring the punishment of God if he is right. Allah said that these non believers are hastening to see Allah's punishment and when the punishment will come they would not be able to avoid it.

With that said, there are many scientific facts stated in these few verses which were not known 1400 years ago and science has only recently established those facts and hence the proof that Quran is Divine guidance and is enough for us to live our life according to Divine law.

30. Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were one mass, and We tore them apart? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not believe?
31. And We placed on earth stabilizers, lest it sways with them, and We placed therein signposts and passages, that they may be guided.
32. And We made the sky a protected ceiling; yet they turn away from its wonders.
33. It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in an orbit.
34. We did not grant immortality to any human being before you. Should you die, are they then the immortal?
35. Every soul will taste death. We burden you with adversity and prosperity—a test. And to Us you will be returned.
36. When those who disbelieve see you, they treat you only with ridicule: “Is this the one who mentions your gods?” And they reject the mention of the Merciful.
37. The human being was created of haste. I will show you My signs, so do not seek to rush Me.
38. And they say, “When will this promise come true, if you are truthful?”
39. If those who disbelieve only knew, when they cannot keep the fire off their faces and off their backs, and they will not be helped.
40. In fact, it will come upon them suddenly, and bewilder them. They will not be able to repel it, and they will not be reprieved.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 01:30 am
@HabibUrrehman,
I'm not asking what you think it says, but what you think it means.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 01:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
There is no god

Can you cite any evidence to back up your claim?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 Jun, 2019 03:19 am
@oralloy,
By the way, I just read a couple of good books that show how much of the Old Testament is backed up by history and archaeology.

It's pretty impressive how far back it goes.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jun, 2019 12:16 pm
@Olivier5,
I replied within my last post but may I was not clear. That particular verse was for the non believers who were making fun of Prophet Muhammad PBUH and were asking him to bring the punishment of Allah if he is truly a Prophet. Allah says that these non believers are hastening to see the punishment of Allah while Allah being merciful is giving them chances to repent before their death approaches them. When punishment of Allah comes then there is no way out. That was the explanation of that verse in the context of Prophet Muhammad PBUH's time.

In our time, it applies in the same sense. There are many who don't believe in Allah and make fun of those who believe in Allah. But Allah still provides to everyone ( believer or non-believer) and still give everyone enough chances to reflect and come to the conclusion that there is only one God and that is none but Allah. The punishment of Allah does come in this world but it is nothing compared to the punishment in hereafter and purpose of punishment or trials in this world is to remind humans of God's existence so that they can connect to their creator.

The beauty with Divine words is that they are so comprehensive in their meanings. Different people may have different interpretations and all those means or interpretations may be true based on each person's situation.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 12:28 am
@HabibUrrehman,
I think it applies to believers too. Especially to those believers trying to reason and argue in a cock-sure manner about mysteries that are way beyond them. You too are a creature of haste.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 08:10 am
@Olivier5,
That is true. Human beings in general are hasty and it is Islam which brings balance in our lives ( I can speak for myself for sure). I still struggle to find balance and tends to do things in haste. However, I know what I should be doing and why I should be doing to find the right balance. Overall life is a struggle. Believers state of heart and mind is not always the same. We commit mistakes and sins just like anyone else but a believer is quick to repent and ask for forgiveness and continues this struggle to improve.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 12:17 pm
@oralloy,
What's the book?
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jun, 2019 12:42 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
By the way, I just read a couple of good books that show how much of the Old Testament is backed up by history and archaeology.

It's pretty impressive how far back it goes.


First point-who wrote the Old Testament? Tradition relates that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (the first five books), but we can assume he encountered a slight technical difficulty (like the fact that he was dead) when it came to recording his own obituary in Deuteronomy 34:5–12. So who authored his death, burial, wake, and the aftermath? Is this author to be trusted, and what does this say about authorship of the Old Testament as a whole? Oh and by the way who wrote Genesis?

Second point-read stories of prophets in OT and you will think even a normal human being would be less sinful than the prophets. Are these the role models you are supposed to follow? If the description of prophets in bible is correct, what is the guarantee that the message which they conveyed was not tempered with?


Third point-you only have to read OT as it is to figure out how impressive it is in its current version. So many contradictions, actually you can find these contradictions on very first page. To name few:

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.

2SA 24:9 The census count was: Israel 800,000 and Judah 500,000.
1CH 21:5 The census count was: Israel 1,100,000 and Judah 470,000.
 

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