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Black Hole Alignment Mystery

 
 
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 01:10 pm
Recent data seems to show that emission jets from spinning black holes are aligned with each other even though they are in entirely different galaxies.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/gas-blasts-black-holes-show-surprising-alignment

The implication of this would be that there is some type of force which spans inter-galactic distances which results in these alignments. The data still needs to be verified to make sure this is not a statistical anomaly or a misreading of the information, but if it turns out to be true then it will be a very big additional mystery to add to our understanding of galactic super structures and galaxy formation.
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 01:19 pm
@rosborne979,
I just read that on Gizmodo.

Finding today to be a difficult one to focus on the particulars. Still fascinating story. Can't wait for followups.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 03:40 pm
@rosborne979,
how do they establish an azimuth from which to compare them all?

If it so, the galaxies and the known universe are discoidal and there may be "Something on the other side"???
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 03:48 pm
Cool beans . . . a real poser . . . thanks for posting this, Boss.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 04:09 pm
@farmerman,
They compare them to each other. But I think the accuracy in three dimensions is what they need to confirm.

Also, these aren't necessarily the galactic core black holes, these are all holes which are exhibiting the polar jet phenomena (which indicates their axis of rotation).
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 06:51 pm
Apparently the alignment is along the "filament" which contains the galaxies. The filaments are the largest superstructures that I am aware of. They constitute a web of galactic formation around enormous empty zones where there are no galaxies (supervoids).
The link in the article wrote:
Abstract

We present a study of the distribution of radio jet position angles of radio galaxies over an area of 1 square degree in the ELAIS N1 field. ELAIS N1 was observed with the Giant Metrewave Radio Telescope at 612 MHz to an rms noise level of 10 μJy and angular resolution of 6 arcsec × 5 arcsec. The image contains 65 resolved radio galaxy jets. The spatial distribution reveals a prominent alignment of jet position angles along a `filament' of about 1°. We examine the possibility that the apparent alignment arises from an underlying random distribution and find that the probability of chance alignment is less than 0.1 per cent. An angular covariance analysis of the data indicates the presence of spatially coherence in position angles on scales >0 .^{circ}5. This angular scales translates to a comoving scale of >20 Mpc at a redshift of 1. The implied alignment of the spin axes of massive black holes that give rise to the radio jets suggest the presence of large-scale spatial coherence in angular momentum. Our results reinforce prior evidence for large-scale spatial alignments of quasar optical polarization position angles.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 06:57 pm
Primer on Cosmic Webs



I think what the black hole spin alignment is showing is that for some reason the black holes tend to spin with an axis which aligns with the filament they are in. What would cause something like this is a mystery.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 07:18 pm
@rosborne979,
We need to wait and see as there might be something amazing or just random chance.

No way of telling until we get more data.
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 09:06 pm
@BillRM,
Worth wondering about though. Hints at interesting possibilities. Always good to gather more data in any case.
brianjakub
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 09:48 pm
@rosborne979,
I think if these assumptions of alignment are true, this suggests a universe wide structure to space, and a closed universe.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 03:08 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
We present a study of the distribution of radio jet position angles of radio galaxies over an area of 1 square degree in the ELAIS N1 field. ELAIS N1 was observed with the Giant Metrewave Radio Telescope at 612 MHz to an rms noise level of 10 μJy and angular resolution of 6 arcsec × 5 arcsec. The image contains 65 resolved radio galaxy jets. The spatial distribution reveals a prominent alignment of jet position angles along a `filament' of about 1°. We examine the possibility that the apparent alignment arises from an underlying random distribution and find that the probability of chance alignment is less than 0.1 per cent. An angular covariance analysis of the data indicates the presence of spatially coherence in position angles on scales >0 .^{circ}5. This angular scales translates to a comoving scale of >20 Mpc at a redshift of 1. The implied alignment of the spin axes of massive black holes that give rise to the radio jets suggest the presence of large-scale spatial coherence in angular momentum. Our results reinforce prior evidence for large-scale spatial alignments of quasar optical polarization position angles.
A lot of journals are trying to require their authors to also have a "plain ENglish" vrsion of their abstracts, so that it can be understood by other than the "priesthood" This kind of fog-factor writing sure doesnt imply that these guys are interested in anything "interdisciplanary"

This just as well could have been written in CHinese. I understand optical polarization angles but why just quasars.

Quote:
presence of spatially coherence in position angles on scales >0 .^{circ}5. This angular scales translates to a comoving scale of >20 Mpc at a redshift of 1.
. Does this need editing or is it just beyond my simple understanding of cosmology?
SORRY I gotta pass, this is waaay over my had and I still have no idea how azimuths are determined

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 03:20 am
@rosborne979,
That :primmer" showed galaxies all festooned at totally disfferent orientations. How then can they make the statement that black holes are aligned (assuming that some significant percentage of all these galaxies contain black holes).

Im still trying to understand a simple point"ALIGNED" with respect to what?.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 03:21 am
@farmerman,
FM, quoting a source wrote:
. . . presence of spatially coherence . . .


That's just crap English, too. Science can have it's own jargon, but it doesn't get to have it's own grammar. Pretty soon, they'll start talking like philosophers, and cease to make any sense.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 03:35 am
@Setanta,
I felt that I should yell out "Oremus" when I got done with that. At least those youtubes helped me out with structure and "filaments".




0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 03:49 am
You have to be careful, because, of course, anyone can post anything to youtube. But if it is vetted by someone whose judgment you trust, it's a wonderful resource. I also like it because i can listen to it while doing other sh*t.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 04:07 am
@Setanta,
Im not doubting the whole thing but Id just like to understand better how these orientations are actually determined. We know darn well that our bases for determining distances is not wholly accurate and are predicated on several measurement tricks (like Cepheid star pulsations) having some degree of "fudge factor"

Its sorta like stratigrphic time. We dont set our watches by it.

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 07:54 am
@farmerman,
I just cut/pasted a part of the link provided in the original article. The authors may have given a "summary", but I didn't look for it so I don't know.

I'm certainly no expert, but here's my interpretation of what the paragraph is saying: Within a certain portion of the sky, they have measured the relative alignment of 65 black hole jets and found them all to correspond to within 1° of the alignment with the filament in which they are contained. The probability that this alignment is random is less that 0.1%. This data, along with other measurements are all in agreement (support each other). The implication of this alignment is that there is some large-scale spatial coherence which results in these alignments.

I don't know why they suddenly mentioned quasars at the end of the paragraph except that quasars may be suspected to be black hole jets seen end-on. I'm not sure about that on.

Does that help at all?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 08:03 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
That :primmer" showed galaxies all festooned at totally disfferent orientations. How then can they make the statement that black holes are aligned (assuming that some significant percentage of all these galaxies contain black holes).

I don't think the black holes they are talking about are necessarily the black holes which populate the center of every galaxy. I think these are simply black holes within the galaxies which happen to be producing these "jets". So, to picture it, the galaxies are tumbling along within the filament such that their central axes point in different directions, but within those galaxies are black holes which are spinning and which are producing jets from their polar axes, and those jets either form in orientation to the filament, or they maintain their orientation to the filament even as the galaxies tumble.

Imagine the forces required to change the axial tilt of a black hole. These things are essentially the most intense gyroscopes in existence. And even earthly gyroscopes don't like to be moved. Black holes are like tornado's of intense spin within the hurricane of the galaxy itself.

farmerman wrote:
Im still trying to understand a simple point"ALIGNED" with respect to what?.
I would like to help with this, but I don't understand what is bothering you with "alignment". As I understand it (and I may be wrong), these jets are aligned relative to each other as initially discovered. This observation implied a larger scale structure which might cause this correspondence of alignment. So in looking for a larger structure which might cause this, they found a correspondence to the cosmic filament.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 08:38 am
After re-reading the article I am no longer certain if they are referencing the black holes which are at the center of galaxies or just black holes in general. All of the references to this seem to be ambiguous. I will try to dig deeper when I have a chance.

I do note however that there are many places in the article where the scientists caveat their speculation by saying that this data may still represent a statistical anomaly or measurement error of some type. So this area of study is still in the speculative phase.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2016 08:47 am
@rosborne979,
ok but I will spend some more time trying to find more about "surveying" space.
 

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