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Was God creating Satan a good idea?

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2016 10:24 pm
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

The answer to the question ,"does man need Gods rule" could only be made abundantly clear by temporarily removing man from under Gods rule and establishing a precedence. Once an example is established, the question need never be asked again.


What is the precedence established?

What is the example established that definitively answers the question?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 03:00 am
@Glennn,
Ah, so you are an evangelist, doing your best to save the ignorant masses from the evil God of the bible and his henchmen.

No, I don't believe that Glennn. Every man makes his own decision about these things after either a little or a lot of contemplation about it.

This is just me and you having a conversation, no matter how visible it might be to others. At least that's how I approach it.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 06:42 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Ah, so you are an evangelist, doing your best to save the ignorant masses from the evil God of the bible and his henchmen.

No, there is no evil god and its henchmen to save the ignorant masses from. There is only an ignorant mass of adults who would go on internet forums to argue for the reality of their perverted version of what a loving being is like, and then there are those who can show that argument to be the insult to the intelligence that it is. Apparently, you are opposed to the latter.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 07:02 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
then there are those who can show that argument to be the insult to the intelligence that it is.
Oh Glennn, we are so lucky to have you.
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 08:23 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

What is the precedence established?

I just realised I was using the words Precedence and example synonymously, which in this case is probably incorrect. I apologise if that was misleading

InfraBlue wrote:

What is the example established that definitively answers the question?

We would have the comparative examples of 6000+ years of every different type of mans rule (so far) vs 1000 years of the rule of Jesus. Results of course are pending but if you were to use his reported ministry as a manifesto for what his Kingdom intends to achieve worldwide, I'd guess that the answer would be pretty emphatic to the intellectually honest.

mark noble
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 08:44 am
@Leadfoot,
Never been 'queue-jumped'.
Why would I stand in a queue?
Was referring to 'frustration', not queues.

Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 08:52 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Oh Glennn, we are so lucky to have you.

It is also good for others to see proponents of the biblical god reduced to employing sarcastic ridicule.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 11:21 am
@mark noble,
Quote:
Never been 'queue-jumped'.
Why would I stand in a queue?
Was referring to 'frustration', not queues.
I guess you haven't been 'jumped' because you've never stood in a queue. If you had, I'm guessing you would understand the association between queues and frustration.

But do the thought experiment. If you were standing in a long, slow queue and got 'queue jumped', how would you feel?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 01:20 pm
@Smileyrius,
Emphatic sure, but mankind's choices are rather limited, though, especially in light of the free will afforded us, according to your theology.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 01:25 pm
@Smileyrius,
I also find it strange that man's existence on this planet is estimated at about 200,000 years, and the christian god appeared only 2000 years ago. There's a disconnect some place, but I'm hard pressed to put a finger on it. LOL
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 05:16 pm
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
We would have the comparative examples of 6000+ years of every different type of mans rule (so far) vs 1000 years of the rule of Jesus.
Now hold on there. Is that a fair comparison? In the current scenario, we have Satan himself free to jam the gears of justice. Then in the 1000 years, not only do we have the Son of God available for consultation but Satan himself is locked away.

Is THAT a level playing field? How could we make an objective comparison given those parameters?
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2016 10:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Just to clarify, the Christian god appeared more like 6,000 years ago. Christ got to the stage 2,000 years ago.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Apr, 2016 06:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I also find it strange that man's existence on this planet is estimated at about 200,000 years, and the christian god appeared only 2000 years ago. There's a disconnect some place, but I'm hard pressed to put a finger on it. LOL
I know you don't buy the story but this is a thread discussing theological issues.

Science defines when 'we' (Homo Sap) arrived on the scene by the shape of various bones. But how would you know when God breathed his spirit into the first man? You can't possibly know that by examining a bunch of bones.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 05:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
A fine ponderer there CI, there are a number of ideas I speculate over, but none more than the idea that although creatures similar to man have existed before us, the bible alludes to us being the first of our kind when we appeared 6000 years ago, inasmuch as we were created in Gods "image", a term which indicates something that sets us apart from the Animal kingdom.

Nothing in the bible for me rules out the existence of Neanderthal man or Dinosaurs before us, and perhaps it was just not pertinent for us to know what happened before our own existence. There is a lot of information that isn't really discussed in the bobble, so you have to sometimes connect the dots through theoretical possibilities. I certainly don't doubt that the existence of life on earth is far older than the 6000 years of mankind.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 09:10 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Is THAT a level playing field?

Do keep in mind that God has super powers. So it is not at all level, but contrary to a test, an example doesn't need to be a level playing field, it merely needs for the message to be clear.
Consider also, that Gods rule has the ability to nullify Satan's influence on the world is merely another added benefit.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 09:28 am
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

Consider also, that Gods rule has the ability to nullify Satan's influence on the world is merely another added benefit.


That God's rule, as interpreted by your theology, is beneficent is an opinion, not a fact, and despite the free will afforded mankind, God's rule will be forced upon us, according to your theology.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 10:27 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Do keep in mind that God has super powers. So it is not at all level, but contrary to a test, an example doesn't need to be a level playing field, it merely needs for the message to be clear.
Consider also, that Gods rule has the ability to nullify Satan's influence on the world is merely another added benefit.
God's super powers were never in question here. What was in question is the fairness of the comparison/example from the perspective of man.

Couldn't man argue that we would have been fine before if only God had not allowed Satan free reign on the planet? This comparison would not seem to make anything clear if a comparison is actually the object.

And you are also ignoring the factor that only those who believed in Christ are resurrected for the 1000 years, thus tipping the field further out of balance. So just what is being demonstrated to the believers in Christ? That things are better when Satan and people under his influence are eliminated? Is that really something that is not already obvious to them?

Then to show that this perspective is correct, Satan is released and things go to pieces again. Many are deceived and join Satan and the final war is fought. Ending with Satan's defeat of course.

I think it is obvious that the purpose of the 1000 years has to be something far beyond a mere demonstration that things go better without Satan and his followers.
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:43 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
That God's rule, as interpreted by your theology, is beneficent is an opinion, not a fact, and despite the free will afforded mankind, God's rule will be forced upon us, according to your theology.
Do you find it unacceptable that we will be forced to live forever in perfect health with no crime? You could always opt out.
neologist
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 12:08 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
. . . Couldn't man argue that we would have been fine before if only God had not allowed Satan free reign on the planet? This comparison would not seem to make anything clear if a comparison is actually the object.
Satan does have free rein with only the exception of his Word, his promise at Genesis 3:15.
Leadfoot wrote:
And you are also ignoring the factor that only those who believed in Christ are resurrected for the 1000 years,
Where did you get that idea? John 5: 28, 29 allows for all who never knew.
Leadfoot wrote:
. . . Then to show that this perspective is correct, Satan is released and things go to pieces again. Many are deceived and join Satan and the final war is fought. Ending with Satan's defeat of course.
Satan alleges that every one of us will serve God only when things go well
Quote:
. . . look! Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat. (Luke 22:31)
See also Job 2:4.
Leadfoot wrote:
I think it is obvious that the purpose of the 1000 years has to be something far beyond a mere demonstration that things go better without Satan and his followers.
Right. The overriding issue is God's sovereignty.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 12:48 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
Quote:
. . Couldn't man argue that we would have been fine before if only God had not allowed Satan free reign on the planet? This comparison would not seem to make anything clear if a comparison is actually the object.



Satan does have free rein with only the exception of his Word, his promise at Genesis 3:15.

You aren't following the train of thought here Neo. There is no argument that Satan has free rein now (with exceptions noted). That's the point! During the 1000 years, Satan DOESN'T have free reign. That's why it is an invalid comparison and man could make the claim I stated.

Of course all will hear his voice and rise from the grave (per John 5:28). But not at the same time. I don't memorize chapter and verse but I'm sure you know the bible says 'the dead in Christ will rise first'. The rest will be raised after the 1000 years in my reading.

God's sovereignty is hardly the issue being demonstrated in the 1000 years. In fact if that were the issue, man could justify saying "Why the **** didn't you stop all this **** 6000 years ago?".

Of course God is sovereign, that will be obvious to anyone raised from the dead if they didn't already know it before. Why do you think it would take 1000 years to convince anyone? If we are that thick I'd incenerate the lot of us if I were God.

There has to be a better explanation for the purpose of the 1000 years.
 

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