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Was God creating Satan a good idea?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 05:27 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
To be clear, what was God's arrangement?
Quote:
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 05:44 pm
@Glennn,
Glennn wrote:
You refuse to see the contradiction within your own statements even when they are pointed out to you by two readers.
I'm sorry the issue seems so difficult to grasp. Adam and Eve were created with neither the knowledge, nor the ability, nor the right to understand good and bad and set their own standards. They had 2 directions related to the tree:
a] Obey God and continue living in the paradise God proclaimed in Genesis 1:28 ". . . Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.", or

b] Disobey and live (or not live) with the consequences.

You may say this was a limitation on free will and you would be right, but only right inasmuch as forces of nature such as gravity place restrictions on our free will.
I'm not guessing about this. Scriptures make many references to it such as Jeremiah 10:23 "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 05:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
No. Death is necessary to maintain life on this planet with finite resources.
They were told to fill the earth, it's true.
Are you supposing that Humans are to procreate until no space is left? Until time comes when a new birth will cause someone to fall into the sea?

Suppose you ask the waiter to fill your coffee cup. Would you expect him to pour until the pot empties, until coffee warms your lap? Hardly.

Think about it.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:18 pm
@mark noble,
Quote:
I 'stew not' over existentialism - So typifing such 'stewing' as 'universally homogenic' is a fallacy.
So what do you stew about Mark? What brings you to a thread with on the subject of "Was God creating Satan a good idea"?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:21 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"This isn't about me or my beliefs."


I've already pointed out to you that you are being challenged to explain your irresistible urge to love and worship an alleged god whose character is shown to be contradictory in nature.
You're thinking of a different thread (or sub thread) Glennn. I gave you my answer to that question 'over there'. Can't help it if you didn't like it.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
No. Death is necessary to maintain life on this planet with finite resources.
Well Duh yeah. About 110B born since Humans have been around might put a strain on things.

But you do have a good point. Certain religions believe after 'Game Over' is called that we (or at least the 'chosen ones') will live forever on Earth in the same fashion we do now, marrying and having kids on into eternity.

Kind of ignores the obvious question.
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 06:57 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Before Adam and Eve chose to have "knowledge of good and bad" they had a conscience that would not have allowed them to sin.

Choosing to have knowledge of good and evil means that they disobeyed the god. Since disobedience to the god is called sin, then you are incorrect in your contention that Adam and Eve had a conscience that would not have allowed them to sin. This is not hard to grasp.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 07:18 pm
@Glennn,
Sorry if you are unable to understand my words. That's what I get for using my own words. They had a choice to make over whether to accept the moral compass God gave them or make decisions on their own.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 09:01 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

What was the funniest part?

You are.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2016 09:14 pm
@neologist,
And with that neologist completely circumvents the points mesquite brings up.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 06:03 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Kind of ignores the obvious question.


Living space alone is a necessary consideration. Eternal population growth is unsustainable, Moomins believe they get their own planet but even that wont solve the problem. I apologise for the satirical adjustment of the term Mormon, no offence was intended toward the Moomins, Sniff, Snufkin, Snorkmaiden, little My or any of the cast not mentioned
Speculating potential fixes could include
Earthwide Sterility
Retrospective expansion or adjustment to the Earth/universe
Infinite Multiverse Colonisation

I like the multiverse theory, what do you do when a memory card gets full, you could stop collecting information but it is far more interesting to get another memory card. Anyhoo, speculation is fun, but who knows!

One thing we do know, God told Adam to fill the Earth, he merely omitted what the plan was beyond that
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 06:50 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Living space alone is a necessary consideration. Eternal population growth is unsustainable,

Speculating potential fixes could include:

Earthwide Sterility
Retrospective expansion or adjustment to the Earth/universe
Infinite Multiverse Colonisation


I'm not an expert on the happily ever after on earth religions but in talking to their members, I get the impression that Sterility would ruin the whole 'Family life is everything' concept. Unless you also freeze aging for the kids, it means the end of it. What would they do when the kids grow up and leave? The Eternal Cleaver family solution where the Beaver never grows up?

The 'Expandable Earth' concept would work and I suppose the adjustment of gravity laws when the mass gets to be too much would be possible for God. Or maybe bodies could transform to have titanium bones and hydraulics for muscles to compensate for the increased gravity.

The Infinite Multiverse thing is appealing but isn't that just another concept for Heaven? For some reason they don't see themselves fit for it. It seems like a bridge too far for those who see themselves carrying on like they do now but on an idealized New Earth,

The real problem in my mind is that when the real-estate problems are solved, even in the most ideal of families, won't the women ever get tired of being baby factories? Won't men get tired of the responsibility for the physical and emotional upbringing of an endless string of children? I did it twice and it was grand, but for eternity? Sounds like hell.

And then there is the fairness question. How come all these new kids get a free pass to eternity without making it through this **** storm on old Earth?

I just don't think they've thought it through.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 06:53 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
You are.
Glad I could provide some entertainment Ros.
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 08:03 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
And then there is the fairness question. How come all these new kids get a free pass to eternity without making it through this **** storm on old Earth?

Justice is one of my bugbears in any belief system, as it is usually considered a key part of the bible Gods personality. So in order to make that claim, you must support it by determining how Justice is played out.
Your question though assumes we are in our current condition by Gods design, perhaps as a test? I'm not keen on that theory. The uneven playing ground would dissipate any claim to justice if we are specifically being tested.
The way I see it, we aren't living in a God ruled world by nature of our own choice. We are struggling our way through a necessary period where man proves to everyone on looking that he does not have the capability to rule his self. If this period is to end, which is suggested by the concept of Armageddon followed by the "new heavens" and "new Earth" then this period cannot have anything to do with a testing method unless the new Earth is as much of a test, why would God need to test us in this manner? I am of the belief that the hardships we suffer on Earth are a consequence, rather than a test.
I am of the belief that this period exists as an example, in order that it never need to be repeated again.
It was confucious who once said
'Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me and I learn"
If God wanted man to learn, he had to allow him to see firsthand the mistake he had made in choosing his own way.

Smallprint
These are my views based on my study, I have been wrong before and am always happy to accept my incorrect assumptions and/or beliefs where shown. Please forgive any preconceived bias that may rear it's head through arrogance, it is not intentional. Scriptural references provided on request Smile
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 08:12 am
@Leadfoot,
I love a bit of speculation I do my friend, thankyou Lead for indulging
Quote:
maybe bodies could transform to have titanium bones and hydraulics for muscles to compensate for the increased gravity.

Or perhaps our bodies are already built to adjust to gradual change over thousands of years, we see precedence in nature with microevolution, which may be a generational adjustment, but we already see how our body adapts to conditions over a short number of years, why stop there. Imagine a thousand years of adjustment, or a million years of adjustment, given eternity, at what point is mans ability to adjust limited?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 08:56 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
Glad I could provide some entertainment Ros.

You're one of the interesting ones. Keep up the good work Smile
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 09:42 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Your question though assumes we are in our current condition by Gods design, perhaps as a test? I'm not keen on that theory. The uneven playing ground would dissipate any claim to justice if we are specifically being tested.

Yes, one of the harder questions if we do see this as a test. And for me there are too many examples in the bible to ignore the possibility. Even your view of 'all this' as a demonstration is a test. Do you recognize it or not?
I have to see some reason for all this and a test fits much of the puzzle pieces.

As for the uneven playing field, That's hard to judge from our own perspective. What is a challenge for one person might be a walk in the park for another. The challenge many go through can be totally invisible to another. I've been through war, deaths around me, crippling injuries and pain. All these were easily seen challenges but they were nothing compared to what challenged and affected me the most. Many looking from the outside might see it and say 'What's the big deal?'. Context is everything.

And given that we have free will, I think we can opt out of the test if we want. Maybe you can choose to live a life free of big challenges. We don't have to volunteer to climb Mount Everest but if we do, it's a challenge.

Yeah, me too, thanks for playing.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 10:43 am
@InfraBlue,
I'm sorry I failed to explain the tree of life. But, then again, the Bible explains little about it other than mentioning it again in the book of Revelation. Speculation about what it actually meant to Adam and Eve, whether they knew of it before the fall, or if its existence was revealed after, seems a fruitless undertaking. Perhaps it was to be reserved for some time in the future.
But they were warned not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and bad.
They ate.
They died.
Now we make our own decisions as to what is good and what is bad.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 10:47 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
If God wanted man to learn, he had to allow him to see firsthand the mistake he had made in choosing his own way.

This sentence doesn't make sense because it is ungrammatical. Can you rephrase it?
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2016 10:52 am
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:
. . . I am of the belief that the hardships we suffer on Earth are a consequence, rather than a test. . .
Makes sense. We have free will, as did the entity who posed as the serpent. To aver otherwise would place the entire 6000 +/- years of human misery squarely on the shoulders of our Creator.
 

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