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Swift Boat Vets For Truth - Are Their Own Medals Tarnished?

 
 
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 10:12 am
Here's the article. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper's Citation Refers To Enemy Fire

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.... Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.


But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

Last month, Thurlow swore in an affidavit that Kerry was "not under fire" when he fished Lt. James Rassmann out of the water. He described Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which says that all units involved came under "small arms and automatic weapons fire," as "totally fabricated."

"I never heard a shot," Thurlow said in his affidavit, which was released by Swift Boats Veterans for Truth.

A document recommending Thurlow for the Bronze Star noted that all his actions "took place under constant enemy small arms fire which LTJG THURLOW completely ignored in providing immediate assistance" to the disabled boat and its crew. The citation states that all other units in the flotilla also came under fire.

Thurlows Reaction?

Thurlow said last night after being read the full text of his Bronze Star citation. "My personal feeling was always that I got the award for coming to the rescue of the boat that was mined. This casts doubt on anybody's awards. It is sickening and disgusting."

Thurlow said he would consider his award "fraudulent" if coming under enemy fire was the basis for it. "I am here to state that we weren't under fire," he said. He speculated that Kerry could have been the source of at least some of the language used in the citation.

In a telephone interview Tuesday evening after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

Ahhhh! Didn't want his records released because he was afraid KERRY might discredit them? The SBVFT's are the one's discrediting their own medals. If they weren't under fire, with that being a prerequisite for the Bronz Star by their own admission none of their own medals are worth anything. Also, knowing they were not under fire... And that enemy fire was required for the medal in question, why did they accept their own medals?

Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. As the senior skipper in the flotilla, Thurlow might have been expected to write the after-action report for March 13, but he said that Kerry routinely "duked the system" to present his version of events.

So, now now he wants to admit that he shirked his responsibility for writing the report AND that he was such a woosie he let this little rich kid Kerry run over him, and this kerry guy flowered it all up so they all got medals they didn't deserve but no one complained (or gave the medals back) until now?

Give Me A Break!!!

(edited to change link to first page of article and re-check my darn typo's)
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,019 • Replies: 15
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 10:15 am
Hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 10:50 am
Perhaps they all should have thrown their medals away along side Kerry? This revelation downplays that act on Kerry's part even more, IMO. If anything, it points out even more how wrong the war was, and how it was being run... Giving out medals so freely to keep up moral?

I wonder when the records from the rest of the SBVFT-ers will be provided?
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 10:52 am
I do hope that Mr. Thurlow will stand by his convictions and return that medal, that he seems to suggest he did not/does not deserve.
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Karzak
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 11:18 am
It's bad when Kerrys lies stain good men, Elliot was a fool for taking Kerry's account of events and pening them in Thurlow's record.
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flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 01:15 pm
Before this argument gets out of hand, I would like to point out that most units have (or at least had) an awards officer. It was his job to write up an action for which a decoration was believed merited. The person involved or someone close to the action would present the details to the awards officer who would then write it up in a "flowery" fashion for submission up the chain of command. I do not make these comments to tarnish any particular awards (I have my own). I'm just trying to put the claims and counterclaims in perspective.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 01:33 pm
Quote:
Statement By Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Member Larry Thurlow

I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river.

To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day.

I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day.

It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day.

I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. My boat and several other swift boats went to the aid of our fellow swift boat sailors whose craft was adrift and taking on water. We provided immediate rescue and damage control to prevent boat three from sinking and to offer immediate protection and comfort to the injured crew.

After the mine exploded, leaving swift boat three dead in the water, John Kerry's boat, which was on the opposite side of the river, fled the scene. US Army Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann, who was on Kerry's boat at the time, fell off the boat and into the water. Kerry's boat returned several minutes later -- under no hail of enemy gunfire -- to retrieve Rassmann from the river only seconds before another boat was going to pick him up.

Kerry campaign spokespersons have conflicting accounts of this incident -- the latest one being that Kerry's boat did leave but only briefly and returned under withering enemy fire to rescue Mr. Rassmann. However, none of the other boats on the river that day reported enemy fire nor was anyone wounded by small arms action. The only damage on that day was done to boat three -- a result of the underwater mine. None of the other swift boats received damage from enemy gunfire.

And in a new development, Kerry campaign officials are now finally acknowledging that while Kerry's boat left the scene, none of the other boats on the river ever left the damaged swift boat. This is a direct contradiction to previous accounts made by Jim Rassmann in the Oregonian newspaper and a direct contradiction to the "No Man Left Behind" theme during the Democratic National Convention.

These ever changing accounts of the Bay Hap River incident by Kerry campaign officials leave me asking one question. If no one ever left the scene of the Bay Hap River incident, how could anyone be left behind?


Source
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flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 01:58 pm
As an anti-Kerry veteran, I would like to be able to take Thurlow's statement at face value; however I can't accept his statement regarding his own bronze star. The citation that accompanied his medal, while not written to the last detail, should be specific enough to recount his rescue efforts. If this were the case, I would expect Thurlow to quote it in part. This in no way makes me accept the story of Kerry and Rassmann. There are too many conflicting viewpoints.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 01:59 pm
Interesting. From the same Swift Boat Source I found this:

Response to Senator John McCain
Author:
Dated: Friday, August 06 2004 @ 07:00 AM PDT
Viewed: 15682 times
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has more than 250 members, many of whom were wounded or highly decorated in Vietnam.
We purchased with our blood and service the right to be heard, to set the record straight about our unit, and to tell the truth about John Kerry's military service record.

We respect Senator McCain's right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Senator McCain did not.

-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (ret.), Founder and Chairman of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth


Isn't one of the "snicker" comments from the Right that Kerry only served in Vietnam for 4 months? Hasn't McCain served with Kerry a lot longer than that in the Senate?
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 02:04 pm
flyboy - Thurlow doesn't even have to quote it in part. Supposedly he lost it a long time ago, and can't find it.

The significance here is that we KNOW it stated that small arms fire was involved (per the records provided to the Post) and when Thurlow recieved this citation 3 months after getting home he certainly read it and would have known it to be wrong. He did nothing about it at that time or since.
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flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 02:24 pm
Thanks, Squinney, you have proven what I surmised.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 02:27 pm
So, either Thurlow accepted an award, knowing it was wrong - or he's lying about what happened. Yup, Squinney clarified that nicely.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Aug, 2004 05:36 am
New Twist:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/109300303292321.xml

besides the fact that this guy wasn't even there and is relying on other peoples accounts, here's what one vet from the ad said:

"French -- relying on friends' accounts -- said Rassmann would have been picked up by another boat if Kerry had not helped. And French said any shots that were fired came from U.S. soldiers providing cover as Rassmann and two others were rescued.

"It's not like he wouldn't have been saved if Kerry had not been there," French said. "I don't believe they were under any fire when that happened. None of the other boats were damaged."

He said Rassmann's rescue did not merit a special honor."


Obviously, the "under fire" requirement isn't needed. The vets are now trying to defend their own medals by saying it's not the "under fire" but the fact that Kerry only did what he was supposed to do, what anyone would have done.

Well, I suppose that if Thurlow hadn't been there someone else would have rescued Boat #3, too, and such an argument still downplays his own medal. Their arguments are getting more ridiculous!
0 Replies
 
Thok
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 02:42 am
Bush adviser quits after appearing in swift boat ad


Quote:
A volunteer adviser has quit President Bush's re-election campaign after appearing in a veterans group's television commercial blasting Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's involvement in the Vietnam-era antiwar movement.

A Bush campaign statement said it did not know that retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier had appeared in an ad by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The Kerry campaign has accused the group of illegally working with the Bush campaign.

As a so-called 527 group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is barred from coordinating efforts with an election campaign.

Kerry's camp calls it a front for the Bush campaign and has urged the Federal Election Commission to cite the group, the Bush campaign and the Republican National Committee for violating federal election laws.

The 527 groups are named for the federal provision that makes such organizations tax exempt and allows them to accept unlimited donations.

Before his departure, Cordier -- who spent six years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam -- was a member of the Bush-Cheney campaign's veterans' steering committee, campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said in a written statement issued Saturday night.

Cordier appeared in a commercial launched Friday by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has accused Kerry of lying about his Vietnam service. In it, he and other Vietnam veterans accuse Kerry, a decorated Navy officer, of selling out his old comrades by joining the antiwar movement upon his return home.

"He betrayed us in the past. How could we be loyal to him now?" Cordier asks in the ad.

Schmidt called Cordier "an American hero" but said he would "no longer participate as a volunteer for Bush-Cheney '04" because of his appearance in the anti-Kerry ad.

"Col. Cordier did not inform the campaign of his involvement in the advertisement being run by a 527 organization," Schmidt said.

The Bush campaign called Kerry's FEC complaint "frivolous" in a response released Saturday and urged commissioners to dismiss it swiftly.

A previous ad by the swift boat group accuses Kerry of lying to get his war medals: three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star. Kerry and others say the ads are false and misleading.

The latest ad, a 30-second spot released Friday, uses segments from Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971. In the ad, Kerry says, "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads," "randomly shot at civilians," and "razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn."

The ad does not include Kerry's preface, in which he said he is reporting what others said at a Vietnam veterans conference. Instead, a swift boat group member refers to the statements as "accusations" Kerry made against Vietnam veterans.

An official transcript shows Kerry was referring to a meeting in Detroit, Michigan, that was part of what was called the Winter Soldier investigation. Kerry has said he regrets some of the comments but stands by his protests.
Two speak up for Kerry

Also Saturday, two former comrades of Kerry backed up the candidate's account of the events that earned him his Silver Star.

William Rood, an editor at the Chicago Tribune, writes in Sunday's editions: "Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened [in 1969] were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us."

Like Kerry, Rood was a lieutenant junior grade and skipper of one of the three boats ambushed twice while on patrol February 28, 1969. Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, the Navy's third-highest combat decoration, for his aggressive response to the ambushes.

Rood won a Bronze Star for his actions in the same clash, and writes that criticism of Kerry " impugns others who are not in the public eye."

He says, "It's gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there."

John O'Neill, who wrote a book challenging Kerry's accounts of his service, said Saturday that SBVT was not challenging Rood's commendation. But in a statement issued the same day, he called Rood's account "an obvious political move" and said the group's accusations against Kerry were drawn from two previous books about the Massachusetts senator.



full story


That's the conclusive averment, that Bush support the group.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 02:54 am
Colonel David Hackworth and Joe Galloway of Knight-Ridder.

I've linked these before, but to have them in the same sentence defending Kerry tells you who's won this point.

These heroes have creds we (most of 'we' is conservative chickenhawks) can only fantasize about, and they have influence in spheres we do not.

Now let's move on. Cool
0 Replies
 
Who
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Aug, 2004 10:12 am
Put all this Swift Boat Veterans unable to cope with normal civilian life hooha aside --- Why would any veteran think Bush is a more honorable man than Kerry -- all he did during the war was fan himself with his daddy's oil covered money. At least Kerry DID something!!!! And besides more lies have come out recently that the SWIFT boat members have said in recent DAYS! I don't ever want Bush anywhere near politics when I'm alive. He is just plain dumb -- lower than our primate ancestors.
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