How to know the true God

@Leadfoot,

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I answered the first at length already and if you had actually read my answer you would know that you can't threaten it.

To be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Is that a fair description of the god's main objective? And if so, how was that threatened by the pre-flood humans?

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@neologist,

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There is a difference between conditions and consequences.

If the god is the giver of free will, and that same god applies consequences to the free use of that will, that is called a condition, or, in your own words, an interference in our quality of free will.

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@Glennn,

I think there's another view that says you have free will. What you choose to do is up to the individual, no different than societal free will. However, if you commit a crime, there will be consequences.

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@Glennn,

Quote:

To be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Is that a fair description of the god's main objective? And if so, how was that threatened by the pre-flood humans?

Not even close. That was just some of God's initial instructions to man. The very beginning of the process by which the final objective might be achieved.

To call those things the final objective is like comparing the objective of winning a war to the orders to recruits to report for basic training.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

Not even close.

Okay, then I'll disregard Neologist's answer to the question of what the main objective of the god is, because what I've offered is his answer to that question.

Anyway, in what way did the pre-flood humans threaten the god's main objective?

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I think there's another view that says you have free will. What you choose to do is up to the individual, no different than societal free will. However, if you commit a crime, there will be consequences.

Understood. However, there is a difference between consequences as they pertain to humans interacting with each other, and consequences as they pertain to the god interacting in the free will affairs of humans.

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@Glennn,

Oh, but I don't believe any gods exist. The only god I understand is nature and evolution.

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@Glennn,

CI said:

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God's flood and free will are contradictory.

Then I said:

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Are they really? How was their free will taken from them? Because their "wicked ways" brought a seemingly untimely death, which was their eventual end anyway? If it is not the right of the Creator to put an end to some thing He created, how then is it our right to put an end to something we had no part in creating? I mean, there is still a death penalty, correct?

Now Glen you are saying:

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So, here I have pointed out to you in no uncertain terms that the god interfered with the free will choices of humans.

So, I will ask again:

What really is your point Glen? How was their free will taken from them? Because their "wicked ways" brought a seemingly untimely death, which was their eventual end anyway? If it is not the right of the Creator to put an end to something He created, how then is it our right to put an end to something we had no part in creating? I mean, there is still a death penalty, correct?

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@Glennn,

I wrote:

There is a difference between conditions and consequences.

Glenn wrote:

If the god is the giver of free will, and that same god applies consequences to the free use of that will, that is called a condition, or, in your own words, an interference in our quality of free will.

You dance nicely.
It's called the A2K sashay.
God created us with certain biological limitations.
We can't abuse drugs, jump off cliffs, or do any of a thousand other things without consequences.

But we may do those things if we are willing (or have been duped) to ignore the consequences. Judge for yourself whether pre flood human behavior was not worthy of consequence.

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@onevoice,

Don't you think that god sent a message to future generations about free will? If they crossed him, he would wipe them out! Total destruction of humanity except for Noah and his family does send a message to future generations about free will. You really don't have free will, because if you step across the line I draw, you'll regret it. For many, fear works. That's been proven in many ways.

Also, that's a total contradiction of a 'loving' god.

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@neologist,

Quote:

God created us with certain biological limitations.
We can't abuse drugs, jump off cliffs, or do any of a thousand other things without consequences.

This is probably highly interesting to those interested in witnessing the extent to which a person's beliefs can cause a mental block prohibiting that person from understanding another person's point, even when it is spelled out in no uncertain terms numerous times.

So, I'll try one more time, but only for the purpose of demonstrating your mental block. The point I have made concerning the god interfering in free will has to do not with the free will interactions between human beings, and not with the biological limitations of human beings. Now listen carefully. If the god is the giver of free will, and that same god applies consequences to the free use of that will (by way of killing with a flood, parting the Red Sea, and causing the sun to stand still in the sky), that is called a condition, or, in your own words, an interference in our quality of free will, and therefore, not free will.

Now, let's see you dance . . .

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@onevoice,

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What really is your point Glen? How was their free will taken from them?

You are exhibiting the same mental block as Neologist. Cicerone has answered your question. Your mental block, which is due to your deification of a book, has caused you to become incapable of understanding that if I grant you free will, and you proceed to exercise that free will, and I kill you because I don't approve of your choice, then what I have granted you was not free will.

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@Glennn,

Once again, you confuse free will with license. Do you suppose the Canaanite ritual of child sacrifice a free will action unworthy of consequence?

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@neologist,

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Once again, you confuse free will with license.

You did it again. You've shown yourself to be incapable of seeing the difference between being the recipient of consequences due to one's interactions with fellow human beings, and being the recipient of consequences (flood) due displeasing the god. Think about that.

And please don't come back with your usual "but if you jump out of a tree . . ." rebuttal.

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@Glennn,

So, child sacrifice doesn't count as interaction between humans?

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@neologist,

And do you think pre flood human activity had nothing to do with human interaction?

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@neologist,

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So, child sacrifice doesn't count as interaction between humans?

State your point clearly.

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@Glennn,

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Okay, then I'll disregard Neologist's answer to the question of what the main objective of the god is, because what I've offered is his answer to that question.

Anyway, in what way did the pre-flood humans threaten the god's main objective?

Neo and I have a difference of understanding on what the destiny of man is so you will have to take that up with him. I do not have a religion that pushes me to any preconceived notion about what God's final objective is so I am a bit more at liberty to come to my own conclusions.

The pre flood question is as I said before: it was a situation where the number of people carrying some promise of yielding his main objective was extremely small, perhaps only one - Noah himself. God obviously decided that the odds of that surviving and growing was better if he wiped out the entire population other than Noah and his family.

The main objective is everything, all else is secondary.

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@neologist,

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And do you think pre flood human activity had nothing to do with human interaction?

I know you're hoping to make a point about free will, but the point is that as long as the one granting the free will opts to kill you if your free will acts displeases it enough, then the free will it has granted is conditional, and therefore not free at all.

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@Leadfoot,

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Neo and I have a difference of understanding on what the destiny of man is so you will have to take that up with him. I do not have a religion that pushes me to any preconceived notion about what God's final objective is so I am a bit more at liberty to come to my own conclusions.

Well, which of you have biblical support for your opinions?

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The pre flood question is as I said before: it was a situation where the number of people carrying some promise of yielding his main objective . . .

Could you perhaps point me to the page on which you declared the god's final objective?

1 Reply

How to know the true God

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