15
   

Bernie wants a revolution! But let's not get crazy, right?

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 05:14 am
@Lash,
No! Really? You mean from that there Infernal Revnooers?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 05:46 am
Too many innocent people paying.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 12:16 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie,

You are blaming African-Americans for the racism they face in American society. Would you ever blame Jews for the antisemitism they face?

Again, you are arguing racism against African Americans is justified. I don't accept that.

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 03:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not about a 'debt' made by one's ancestors, but who would be the recipient?



Reparations of any sort would be paid through taxes, most likely. This would increase the tax burden of all citizens. My family were not here during the pre-Civil War period, nor were they part of the society that existed in the Jim Crow South. I do not believe I should be taxed for repairing sins that my family did not commit.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 03:50 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not about a 'debt' made by one's ancestors, but who would be the recipient?


My guess would be there would have to be some standard of proof of bloodline ancestry to people who were enslaved.


Are you presupposing that reparations are going to come to fruition? It need not be done with lump-sum payments nor annutities, but with job preference, as we see in many civil service jobs in Northern urban centers. Plus, how come Blacks get to lament over their economic underclass, when others had much prejudice heaped upon their group, yet found an economic niche to prosper in? How long will the country claim that all problems of the Black demographic are caused by whitey? Sort of like claiming that anti-Semitism is holding back Jewish Americans from success? No? And, please don't tell me that anti-Semitism is less pervasive than any anti-Black prejudices. It might just be that Jewish Americans are willing to play the game of being more obsequious to Gentiles in the hierarchal job venue. Sociologically, I've read that many Black males put great value on having a job where "they are their own man," such as delivery truck driver. It seems that being in a hierarchal job venue, where one needs to act somewhat deferent to someone that is not a "brother" is really anathema. Am I wrong?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 03:52 pm
Coates makes a well written and passionate argument how African-Americans were and, to some extent, continue to be harmed by "White Supremacy" but he's not made a case for reparations because he consistently ducks the issue of not only how the reparations would be engineered, but how they would make any meaningful difference.

It all well and good to say that in accordance with the law of torts a harm in violation of a right has been committed, but as Chicago Joe pointed out that's not enough.

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 04:27 pm
@Foofie,
If nobody can identify who will be the beneficiaries, the question of who to tax is moot.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 08:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

If nobody can identify who will be the beneficiaries, the question of who to tax is moot.

I think in liability insurance it is called "subrogation," meaning that once an insurance company pays a claim, it goes after the cause of the claim. So, in the thinking about reparations, some African nations were the initiators, by doing business with slave traders. Let's call it Historical Globalization?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 09:31 pm
@Foofie,
Liability insurance is an individual choice as to coverage and deductibles.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 09:52 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Coates makes a well written and passionate argument how African-Americans were and, to some extent, continue to be harmed by "White Supremacy" but he's not made a case for reparations because he consistently ducks the issue of not only how the reparations would be engineered, but how they would make any meaningful difference.

It all well and good to say that in accordance with the law of torts a harm in violation of a right has been committed, but as Chicago Joe pointed out that's not enough.


I hear you, but a couple of things...
Sometimes I'm not sure the whole"violation has been committed" piece is considered a fait accompli in the collective American psyche. We can call it a given only if we regard the portion of the populace that believes blacks should be grateful just to be here as strictly fringe.

The reason Coates' and others of note have devoted entire tomes to arguing for the moral and ethical "rightness" of Reparations and gave plans for implementation short, if any mention is that it has never been at all clear that the country was ready to move from a discussion of established need to practical application.

The argument has been about whether it is a right and good thing to do right from the start. Granted, when General Sherman issued his famous Field Order #15 - prescribing that 40 acres of sized confederate land be distributed to every freedman - I guess there was some consensus that repayment for harm done was in order. But the promise of 40 acres (and the later added mule) was promptly overturned by Lincoln's successor Andrew Johnson.

And to my knowledge, the argument has gone on through the centuries between those who see reparations as an easily justifiable moral imperative that should be done, and those who either don't think so, or who do think so but still feel it shouldn't be done, for sundry reasons.

So, although I understand and tend to agree with you when you say "in accordance with the law of torts a harm in violation of a right has been committed" and it isn't enough, I also understand why the discussion tends to stall at the outset. It's because the very thought sticks in some craws. For sundry reasons.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-americans-many-rivers-to-cross/history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 08:05 am
@snood,
I think reparations at the end of the war were the right thing to do. The moral imperative for reparations now is much less clear.

We would be better served, now, by something like a universal income in order to lift everyone out of poverty.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 08:13 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

I think reparations at the end of the war were the right thing to do. The moral imperative for reparations now is much less clear.

We would be better served, now, by something like a universal income in order to lift everyone out of poverty.


I don't necessarily disagree with that. The settlements reached with some NA tribes have taken several forms - land, grant of sovereignty, cash...
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:13 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

I think reparations at the end of the war were the right thing to do. The moral imperative for reparations now is much less clear.

We would be better served, now, by something like a universal income in order to lift everyone out of poverty.


I don't necessarily disagree with that. The settlements reached with some NA tribes have taken several forms - land, grant of sovereignty, cash...
get t

When any "cash" is spent then what? Does the next generation of American Blacks get its own stipend? And, what is "grant of sovereignty"? Black Americans get a new national identity? Now don't that beat all - a new Confederacy.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:20 pm
@Foofie,
I simply meant that in prior attempts to settle reparations, no one form has been in effect, but several.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:29 pm
@snood,
Japanese Americans were sent to concentration camps during WWII. We received reparations many years later in the amount of $20,000 for those still alive.
NOTE: Japanese Americans volunteered into the Army from the camps and from Hawaii, and they were the most decorated battalion in any war the US was involved in.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Did only those who were physically held in camps receive money, or did ancestors or relatives receive anything?
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 12:51 pm
@snood,
snood wrote:

I simply meant that in prior attempts to settle reparations, no one form has been in effect, but several.


In my opinion, when one goes to a city park, and many of the civil service park workers are Black Americans that are living in their own neighborhoods, in public housing, and a generation ago those workers were white ethnics with minimal public school education, I think society is trying very hard to compensate for the decades of Black Americans living in a "gig" bohemian economy a la the women that were nannies and joined the bus boycott, as in the movie.
In effect, reparations are going on as I type, since no one hears Black women anymore telling a white woman, "I don't do windows."
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 01:05 pm
@Foofie,
Okee dokie. In your opinion reparations is ongoing already. Noted.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 03:25 pm
@snood,
No. My wife's family moved to Colorado, and they also received reparations. It's a wonder to me that they owned a car during that period. They lived on a German farm in Northern Colorado for the duration of the war.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2016 03:42 pm
@snood,
Only survivors (at the time of the payments) received the $20,000. Heirs and descendants did not receive funds - the debate about that demand that went on for about many years.

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/08/09/210138278/japanese-internment-redress

Quote:
In 1988, President Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act to compensate more than 100,000 people of Japanese descent who were incarcerated in internment camps during World War II. The legislation offered a formal apology and paid out $20,000 in compensation to each surviving victim


http://www.civilrights.org/resources/features/018-civil-liberties-act.html
 

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