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Bernie wants a revolution! But let's not get crazy, right?

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 12:21 pm
@snood,
I really couldn't care less.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 12:24 pm
@snood,
That's not my goal. After you began cursing at me through messages over our disagreements from this thread I really just didn't want you to keep messaging me and given that I can't block you telling you I'd publish them if they continued was the only idea I had to get you to stop. I mistakenly thought the greater liberties you took in private exchanges vs public exchanges would make you want to get out of my inbox but was wrong again there and you told me instead to publish them. All you had to do to end it before this was stop sending me messages like I requested, and as long as you don't keep sending me messages I'm moving on.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2016 06:12 pm
@DrewDad,
I think that speaks well of you
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2016 01:56 pm
Just a simple thouoght experiment: If the vast majority of non-Blacks were color blind, and thought of Black Americans with total equality of feelings (to everyone else), and Black Americans felt no prejudice, and were proportionally present in all venues, would there be any thought of reparations? My point is that reparations , in my opinion, is only a question in a society were Black Americans still have a complaint as to how they are treated and perceived. So, the question that might be more appropriate is whether non-Black Americans will ever be color blind? My thinking is that they won't, since Americans, being just humans, will always have their preferences for who they associate with, etc. It's just the nature of humanity, in my opinion. And, another question might be, who would the onus fall on to effect Black Americans to overcome their concerns? Probably one should look to other countries to see how people of color are treated. At least then the U.S. can get a proverbial grade, comparing itself to the rest of the world.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 03:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I doubt reparations for African Americans will go anywhere. There are too many against it. They can keep trying, but they'll end up frustrated.

The question itself,regarding reparations, might need to be analyzed as to whether it is an ethical question. Should people inherits the debt made by the sins of one's ancestors? Should over 40% of the population, and increasing, have to see thier taxes increase, when their families came to the U.S. after 1865? And, most important should freedom for a human be monitized with a price? In some distant future that could be used for some nefarious purpose.

And, in northern urban areas there are many bi-racial people. Do they warrant a proportional reparation? Should all Black Americans get a DNA test, so many might see that one cannot judge a book by its cover, so to speak. I am not so sure that it is correct to adopt the old one-drop mentality. That is racist, I would think.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 05:04 pm
@Robert Gentel,
And yet you were thumbed down on this.

Welcome to your creation.

This highlights the quandary which presents itself when you participate in a thread.

Based on what you've related there is no question that Snood has acted like an "asshole" and should be suspended, but how to do that and not look like you have taken advantage of your standing and power?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 05:53 pm
@Foofie,
It's not about a 'debt' made by one's ancestors, but who would be the recipient?
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 07:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not about a 'debt' made by one's ancestors, but who would be the recipient?


My guess would be there would have to be some standard of proof of bloodline ancestry to people who were enslaved.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 07:32 pm
@snood,
I wonder who would undertake that job. The Church of Later Day Saints has a family history library in Salt Lake City. That's where I learned about my family.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 07:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
don't get me started..
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 08:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I wonder who would undertake that job. The Church of Later Day Saints has a family history library in Salt Lake City. That's where I learned about my family.


I don't know, CI. There has been steadily increasing interest in and efforts to trace black ancestry over the years since Alex Haley's Roots. Sites like ourblackancestry.com and rootsweb.com and ancestry.com/africanamerican
are helping more and more people trace their lineage back to the plantations and slave owners. I think with ever improving DNA technology and the combined efforts of more and more people with more advanced resources (including the federal government), it might not be an insurmountable task to come up with some kind of standard established for genuine blood ancestry to the black slaves.
I'm thinking maybe the government would use similar methods to the ones used to determine the validity of the about 550 federally recognized Native American tribes (and I make that reference fully cognizant that Native American Reparations has not been without great contention that's ongoing).
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 08:31 pm
@snood,
I've not heard or read about this "steadily increasing interest" of black Americans to trace their ancestry. But, as you say, Roots and DNA have influenced many to trace their ancestry. Have you inquired with the government to see if they are looking into black Americans on the issue of reparations? Maybe, somebody should. You can always contact your congress member.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 09:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I've not heard or read about this "steadily increasing interest" of black Americans to trace their ancestry. But, as you say, Roots and DNA have influenced many to trace their ancestry. Have you inquired with the government to see if they are looking into black Americans on the issue of reparations? Maybe, somebody should. You can always contact your congress member.


Well one easy to understand reason I've heard more about black people wanting to trace their ancestry is maybe because I've spent more time around black people talking to them than you have; do you think that's barely possible?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 09:11 pm
@snood,
Barely? Extremely is more like it. That's because I rarely see black people within our social circle or in our neighborhood. It's even a rarity when we go shopping or to restaurants.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 09:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Professor Robert Gates has been exploring the genealogy of celebrities for the past few years and the results are discussed on a show he does for PBS. He's also been telling people how much of their DNA comes from various regions around the world. I think there are scientific ways to determine our heritage, but as of today, I don't know if there is enough paper documentation of all the people brought here against their will. But, the art stolen from Jewish people by Hitler during and before WWII is still being identified and returned to the families of the people murdered in the Nazi concentration camps.

I point I was trying to make was, that we may not have the best scientific ways to rectify wrongs now but we may have them in the future. It won't be easy, it's complicated and there were a lot of bad actors involved in the slave trade. You can't ignore the ship owners and traders who were complicit and profited in the cargos of misery innocent. Somebody above my pay grade and smarter than I am might be able to come up with a satisfactory solution.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 10:29 pm
@snood,
I'm still kind of stuck on what group would be responsible for reparations to descendants of slaves. Would it be the captors/traders in Africa/Ireland? the ship owners/captains from various European countries? descendants of original owners in the US/Caribbean/India/other countries?

Reparations in some cases are much easier than in this particularly tangled area. Reparations to descendants of residential schools comes to immediate mind. We know who was involved at pretty much all levels.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 10:34 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

I'm still kind of stuck on what group would be responsible for reparations to descendants of slaves. Would it be the captors/traders in Africa/Ireland? the ship owners/captains from various European countries? descendants of original owners in the US/Caribbean/India/other countries?

Reparations in some cases are much easier than in this particularly tangled area. Reparations to descendants of residential schools comes to immediate mind. We know who was involved at pretty much all levels.

Just like in the case of reparations for the Japanese or for the Native Americans, I guess the "group" accused of wrongdoing and liable for recompense would be the US Government.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 10:40 pm
@snood,
Not buying that.

It doesn't mean anything that I don't, but I can't find any way for that position to make sense to me. I've tried - but too many other parties were involved, unlike the cases you've suggested could be considered similar (?) .
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2016 11:05 pm
@ehBeth,
Let me preface this as I should all my responses on this thread with "Well, I certainly don't know, but in my opinion..." although there were other parties involved in enslaving blacks in America, the United States could not have survived as a sovereign entity (certainly not as the nascent superpower) without the revenue produced from chattel slavery. The US was enriched and enabled as a nation by the slavery produced cotton trade, so maybe the only identifiable entity that could be named as a defendant is the US Government.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2016 04:59 am
@snood,
the US govt gets their money from me, in part, you, etc.

 

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