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Would you assassinate Hitler?

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 09:26 am
fresco wrote:
Joe,

JLN indicated earlier that he would have been an assassin of Hitler,(as probably would I).

Then what explains your different positions with regard to killing Hitler and killing Stalin?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 02:19 pm
The difference is that the "me vs Hitler" as opposed to the "me vs Stalin" would have been forged within the consensus of greater imimnent danger, physical proximity, and empathy with the victims. This "immoral stance" is reflected by the familiar media phenomenon of differential reporting space for "near" versus "distant" catastrophes.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 02:52 pm
fresco wrote:
The difference is that the "me vs Hitler" as opposed to the "me vs Stalin" would have been forged within the consensus of greater imimnent danger, physical proximity, and empathy with the victims. This "immoral stance" is reflected by the familiar media phenomenon of differential reporting space for "near" versus "distant" catastrophes.

Would you then consider both your killing of Hitler and your not-killing of Stalin to be equally moral?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 06:44 pm
My point is that at the point of action "morality" doesnt come into it.

Perhaps I should have used the term "ammoral". I think " morality" functions as a predisposition to action and as evaluation of the action after the fact, but the action itelf is fuelled largely by emotionality coupled with opportunity.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Dec, 2004 08:00 pm
Fresco, you are perhaps pointing to the "organic" properties of ethical behavior. While it's certain that some behaviors are to some extent reflective of the individual's moral conditioning, it is also likely that much behavior reflects INTERESTS as well as VALUES. The moral dimension comes in where people, as well as the actor, come to evaluate the action. Here is where STANDARDS and VALUES embodied in moral rules enters. And it is very likely that much, of what Max Weber calls, "social action" occurs after the actor has taken into account possible responses others may make to his line of action. Sometimes a behavior is reflexive or propelled by unconscious drives and sometimes it is calculated and propelled by conscious intentions. Sometimes values and morals present themselves before the action--during the calculation--and other times, as you suggest, after the fact, serving justificatory functions.
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 01:42 am
JLN,

Agreed in principle. The chain of interactions leading to one in particular cannot be ignored included considerations of "morality", and such a chain includes the factor of potential opportunity. Thus the perceived "greater viability" of the Hitler action would have been significant in generating any "moral debate"vs that for Stalin. I am taking the line of moral relativism in which both social distance and physical distance plays a part.
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val
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 05:29 am
Very good point, Nobody.
As I see it, values emerge within individual or collective experience. They are answers and ways to deal with exteriority - includind the others. That is why moral rules and values change: the external conditions - includind, I repeat, the others - also change, and previous answers are not adequate to the new conditions.
The problem of killing Hitler is always a moral question: we are considering it from the present, as the topic suggests, so it is a moral question since the beginning.
I would not kill Hitler until he starts doing the crimes he did. Only then I see the killing as a moral issue.

About interests, I think that moral values are not separable from interests, conceived as social, cultural and economic dominating groups.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 10:44 am
fresco wrote:
My point is that at the point of action "morality" doesnt come into it.

Perhaps I should have used the term "ammoral". I think " morality" functions as a predisposition to action and as evaluation of the action after the fact, but the action itelf is fuelled largely by emotionality coupled with opportunity.

If you killed Hitler, should you have been commended for your act? If you refrained from killing Stalin, should you have been commended for your forebearance?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 12:35 pm
Joe,

I can't answer "should".

I almost certainly would have been commended by many for killing either, but perhaps less so for Stalin since the Soviet regime may not have altered significantly.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 03:49 pm
I'm afraid my reference to the "organic" character of moral behavior, is too vague. Let me discuss it further. I do not think that a moral SYSTEM, whether of the Christian decalog or moral understandings of oral traditions, tells us much of the ethical and moral behavior of actual people. We can't describe such behaviors with reference only to the rule system such that actions turn out to be clearly moral, amoral, or immoral. Ambiguity of behavior and rules is a central feature of moral reality. This is just as true as is the realization that knowledge of America's Constitution is insufficient to provide an adequate understanding of how our political life proceeds. That life is more of a pattern of actions taken sometimes with reference to constitutional rules, even if that reference is made in order to breach the rules. Politics proceeds with reference to both normative rules (what one "should" do to win approval) and pragmatic rules (what one must do in order to win, even if that conflicts with normative rules).
This morning I was having breakfast with two friends. The topic was the brideprice and dowry systems of some societies. One fellow said that his younger sister passed up a chance to marry a man she loved because she did not feel it appropriate that she should marry before her older sister did. I asked if she was following some explicit norm, he said no. It was just a feeling of what was the proper thing to do. In my terminology that was an ethical decision. The other fellow, born and raised in rural India, interjected that that WAS an explicit rule in his part of India. I guess that is clearly a moral rule. He said that his younger sisters were EXPECTED not to marry before the older ones did. It turned that the older sister never married; she stayed with her parents, inheriting their property and taking care of them in their last years (apparently an adaptive variation on the principle of ultimogenitor, where the youngest child remains with the parents, sometimes not marrying or bringing his or her spouse to live with the parents). I was interested in the actions of the sister in the first case. Is it not possible that her sensibility could some day, under some conditions, become an explicit norm of her society? It may be that morals emerge that way. Obvioiusly the grave norms of the Christian decalog, were "invented" by the folk sociologists of ancient societies because of their imperative nature: a society cannot persist if murder, gross deception, adultery, theft, etc. were officially condoned. The official prohibition of these actions may be seen as imperative for the survival of any society. And often the proscriptions are given religious sanction, in order that they not be questioned (isn't that what a sacrosanct rule is, one that is beyond dispute?).
But the sensibility of the girl not to marry before her older sister is an example of a desire not to injure another, even though no rule exists to mandate her sacrifice. In her later years, I was told, she made much of her virtuous sacrifice. We do not claim virtue for not having killed someone; that is expected. But we may claim virtue for the good we do that is not expected. It is the complexity of actual social behavior with its roots in psychology and the contingencies of everyday life that I think better describes morality on the ground, than does reference to moral codes. We have both sacred (moral) and secular (laws) that direct action to some extent, but whether or not they actually affect behavior is a question requiring acknowledgement of the ambiguities and complexity--the organic quality--of social behavior.
So, if I could read the future back in the early 1930s, and I had the opportunity, I certainly would have killed Hitler, but I would have done it as painlessly as possible, in order to be both ethical and moral. Laughing
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 04:02 pm
fresco wrote:
Joe,

I can't answer "should".

I almost certainly would have been commended by many for killing either, but perhaps less so for Stalin since the Soviet regime may not have altered significantly.

On what basis would your killing of Hitler be commendable?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2004 06:03 pm
Joe,

I assume you want me to give obvious answers like "shortening the war" or "being brave", and I'm wondering where the rhetoric is leading.

Interestingly, one of the reasons given for the abhorting of an actual assassination attempt by the British Secret Service in 1944 was that it would not have been politically expedient to allow Germany to surrender at that time. Put that one in your "morality pipe" and smoke it !
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:19 am
There was an assassination attempt by one of his associates by having a bomb in a case at eagles nest where hitler was staying. The bomb went off but Hitler wasn't injured. They caught the guy and tortued him and killed him.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:23 am
australia wrote:
There was an assassination attempt by one of his associates by having a bomb in a case at eagles nest where hitler was staying. The bomb went off but Hitler wasn't injured. They caught the guy and tortued him and killed him.


When you are referring to the plot to assassinate Hitler on July 20, 1944, it's a bit more and different than your shortened version.

When it's something different, would you explain that, please.
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:37 am
Yep I shortened it a tad, but I thought the facts was okay. I am pretty sure it was in eagles nest and it was a bomb that went off but Hitler was not killed.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:40 am
That's correct.
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:45 am
Why do they not like it when you refer to it as eagles nest? I went there last year, and the taxi driver went angry at me for calling it eagles nest. He said, it is rude to refer to it as that name. I thought that was what it was called though.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:54 am
Just a comment here - it is great that you folk opened this thread up again - and made it what I hoped it would be from the beginning! I am reading along with interest.
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danni-lee
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 02:54 am
yes, thousands of innocent people would still be alive now. ofcourse, who knows what effect that could have on the present.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Dec, 2004 03:00 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
That's correct.


Actually, it isn't:

it happened at the "Wolfsschanze" (Wolf's Lair), which is located in Ketrzyn, Poland.
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