Tes yeux noirs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:06 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Tesyeux already mentioned in this thread that anti-vaccination nutters and anti-GMO nutters are well known in the UK.

Anti-vaccination nutters exist, I wouldn't say they are widespread, and doubts about GMO are found in a very large section of the populace, not just zealots and people with hobbyhorses. Isn't it using emotive language to call them 'nutters?

Tuna
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:08 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
The Sierra Club are a bunch of power mad fools, in my never humble opinion. Years ago, they successfully blocked a hydro-electric project in Bnagladesh which would have required international funding. They blocked the funding. They opposed it because it would have drowned some land in order to make the reservoir which would have been needed to regulate the flow of the water. They wanted to "save" the forest which would have been drowned. Ironically, it is possible that an equivalent acreage of forest has been cut down since then for firewood--many Bengalis use firewood for cooking and heating. (I say possibly because the source where i read this is a fanatical anti-Sierra Club site, so i don't consider them to necessarily be a reliable source.) Of course, with electricity, they wouldn't need to burn wood for fuel and heating.

My knowledge about the Sierra Club comes from buddies who are foresters. My buddies went into forest science because they love forests. They find it irritating to be treated as if they're the enemy. But as with the scenario you mentioned in Bangladesh, the Sierra Club, by being unwilling to look at the bigger picture, may put wildlife habitats at greater risk.

I take venison from hunters every year. I've tried twice to be a vegetarian, and it doesn't work. Protein supplements don't help. There's something in meat that my body needs.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:08 pm
@Tes yeux noirs,
Fair play, i won't refer to them as nutters any longer. My point was, that whether it's an American doing it, or someone else, it is usually not reasonable to assert that there is more or less of anything in the population of the United States, just because it's the United States.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:12 pm
@Tuna,
I can't claim to be a nutritionist, so i'm not going to make claims i can't support. However, i have read that denying meat to children might deprive them so some proteins they need. The most egregious case of which i know was a vegan couple in Ohio who had their children taken away from them because the children were malnourished. The eldest child was a girl who was five years old. She had the stature and weight of a two year old toddler. That was, of course, an extreme case, but i think that vegans and vegetarians who are raising children need to be vigilant about their diets.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:17 pm
Figures, sho nuff:

Quote:
“The FBI said that 1,100 criminal acts have been committed since 1976 by the Animal Rights Movement and that "animal rights and eco-extremists" are "the FBI's No. 1 domestic terrorism priority."
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 01:47 pm
This prescient analysis was done in 1975!

Quote:
There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production – with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now.

The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually.

Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars’ worth of damage in 13 U.S. states.

To scientists, these seemingly disparate incidents represent the advance signs of fundamental changes in the world’s weather....If the climatic change is as profound as some of the pessimists fear, the resulting famines could be catastrophic. “A major climatic change would force economic and social adjustments on a worldwide scale,” warns a recent report by the National Academy of Sciences, “because the global patterns of food production and population that have evolved are implicitly dependent on the climate of the present century.”

Climatologists are pessimistic that political leaders will take any positive action to compensate for the climatic change, or even to allay its effects.


Some proposed solutions: "...melting the Arctic ice cap by covering it with black soot or diverting arctic rivers,..."

The threat?: The whole damn world is gunna FREEZE OVER, right soon!

http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:02 pm
@layman,
What's the point, 49 years ago scientists were worried about changes to the climate, but they weren't sure. So they did 49 years worth of study to get it right until they reached a scientific consensus.

Now they are sure.

You don't see categorical statements from scientific institutions that human caused climate change is happening in 1976. Comparing the conjectures of 1976 with the urgent and bold statements of today is ignoring 49 years of careful study.

When the scientific community comes together to reach such a broad consensus and speaks with such an urgent voice, it is correct (and has historically been correct),

layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:08 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
When the scientific community comes together to reach such a broad consensus and speaks with such an urgent voice, it is correct (and has historically been correct),


Broad consensus? Where?

Quote:
“A major peer-reviewed paper by four senior researchers has exposed grave errors in an earlier paper in a new and unknown journal that had claimed a 97.1% scientific consensus that Man had caused at least half the 0.7 Cº global warming since 1950.”

“The new paper by the leading climatologist Dr David Legates and his colleagues, published in the respected Science and Education journal, now in its 21st year of publication, found the true consensus among published cientific papers is now demonstrated to be not 97.1%, as Cook had claimed, but only 0.3%.

Dr Legates said: “It is astonishing that any journal could have published a paper claiming a 97% climate consensus when on the authors’ own analysis the true consensus was well below 1%. It is still more astonishing that the IPCC should claim 95% certainty about the climate consensus…

when so small a fraction of published papers explicitly endorse the consensus as the IPCC defines it.”

"Dr William Briggs said: "Cooks paper provides the clearest available statistical evidence that there is scarcely any explicit support among scientists for the consensus that the IPCC, politicians, bureaucrats, academics and the media have so long and so falsely proclaimed."

"Christopher Monckton of Brenchley, an expert reviewer for the IPCCs imminent Fifth Assessment Report, who found the errors in Cooks data, said: "It is unscientific to assume that most scientists believe what they have neither said nor written."

The problem we now have in the climate community is that some scientists are mixing up their scientific role with that of a climate activist,” (Lennart Bengtsson, a research fellow at the University of Reading, one of the study’s authors)


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/09/03/cooks-97-consensus-disproven-by-a-new-paper-showing-major-math-errors/
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:14 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Broad consensus? Where?


All over the place. Have you heard of NASA?

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:29 pm
Quote:
Dr Stephen Schneider, of Stanford University, is a well-respected climatologist who is also quite active in the media and politics – chances are you’ve seen him in something like The 11th Hour, read one of his books, or read an interview with him in the newspaper. Chances are, you’ve also seen the following quote attributed to him:

Quote:
On the one hand, as scientists we are ethically bound to the scientific method. On the other hand, we are not just scientists but human beings as well. To do that we need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, means getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.


http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/21/stephen-schneider-and-the-%E2%80%9Cdouble-ethical-bind%E2%80%9D-of-climate-change-communication/

Well, which is it, eh? Ya wanna be honest or effective?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:39 pm
@layman,
You are doing the same thing in this thread that you did in the other thread-- argument by google search. This is not a good way to learn, nor is it a good way to make a point. You can find people on the internet making any argument in pseudo-science terms. It doesn't mean anything.

Scientific literacy means trusting the scientific institutions that are actually doing the research, hiring the experts and solving real problems. Our science institutions have sent robots to Mars, cured diseases, created the internet and doubled the human life span. None of these were done by crackpots who abandoned standard science. They were done by people who got the education, did the research, published all working within the established institutions.

NASA is the organization that puts satellites in orbit to monitor the Earth's climate. Why would you listen to random person on the internet instead of listening to NASA (or any of the other professional organizations that actually have success doing useful science).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:43 pm
That quote is from 1989. In January, 2002, in The Scientific American, Schneider wrote:

Quote:
In a January 2002 Scientific American article Schneider wrote:

I readily confess a lingering frustration: uncertainties so infuse the issue of climate change that it is still impossible to rule out either mild or catastrophic outcomes, let alone provide confident probabilities for all the claims and counterclaims made about environmental problems. Even the most credible international assessment body, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has refused to attempt subjective probabilistic estimates of future temperatures. This has forced politicians to make their own guesses about the likelihood of various degrees of global warming.


His position was not unambiguous. That quote comes from the Wikipedia biography, and there is a link there for what Schneider said were the misrepresentations of his statement.

It is worth noting that there were not melt lakes sitting on the surfaces of glaciers in Greenland in 1989, and that it had not yet been discovered that the West Antarctic ice sheet is detaching from that continent.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:50 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I readily confess a lingering frustration: uncertainties so infuse the issue of climate change that it is still impossible to rule out either mild or catastrophic outcomes, let alone provide confident probabilities for all the claims and counterclaims made about environmental problems. Even the most credible international assessment body, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has refused to attempt subjective probabilistic estimates of future temperatures.


Well, there ya have it, then, eh? There's your consensus, sho nuff.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 02:55 pm
@layman,
More elaboration from Schneider:

Quote:
Schneider’s more recent papers recognize the limi­tation of this discussion and distinguish between objective and subjective uncertainty:


"Scientists deal with different types of uncertainty and respond to them differently, and we must keep that in mind…. However, there is a second kind of probability that involves judgments: subjective probability. This occurs when scientists deal with complex systems, as I do in studying a climate-environmental system or with those who study health systems. In these complex systems, when there are many interconnected subcom­ponents, scientists often are uncertain about the extent and magnitude of these interconnections. As a result, they have to make judgments about these interconnec­tions and, consequently, underlying assumptions are subjective."


http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/21/stephen-schneider-and-the-%E2%80%9Cdouble-ethical-bind%E2%80%9D-of-climate-change-communication/


When it comes to climate alarmism, the more subjective, the more better, I always say!
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:10 pm
@layman,
He was, by the way, one of the first to promote the global cooling threat:

Quote:
Schneider coauthored a 1971 article in the journal Science about atmospheric aerosols—floating particles of soil dust, volcanic ash, and human-made pollutants. His research suggested that industrial aerosols could block sunlight and reduce global temperatures enough to overcome the effects of greenhouse gases, possibly triggering an ice age.


http://discovermagazine.com/2006/feb/global-cooling

But, give the guy credit, eh? He soon (it only took 3 years) found a different scenario to make up scary stories about:

Quote:
In 1975 Newsweek wrote of "ominous signs" that temperatures were dipping, and a year later National Geographic suggested the possibility of a worldwide chilling trend. Stephen Schneider, a climatologist at Stanford University, recalls those stories well. "I was one of the ones who talked about global cooling," he says. "I was also the one who said what was wrong with that idea within three years."

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:22 pm
@layman,
I suppose these animal rights activist kill many schoolchildren and conference goers?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:26 pm
@layman,
That's a very tired GW-denier cliché. One guy wrote one paper that was wrong in the 1970s, and a whole science is always wrong... Oh puh-lease!
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:33 pm
@Olivier5,
Once again, Ollie:

Quote:
we need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination. That, of course, means getting loads of media coverage. So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have.


It's the same old story, Ollie. Many highly respected and eminently qualified climatologists have severely criticized IPPC reports. The faithful don't pay a bit of attention to them. Why should they? They have already gone on record announcing that they know the TRUTH.

I'm the same way, of course. I don't pay a bit of attention to what the bogusly created "consensus" is, either. I already know they're a buncha damn liars.
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:41 pm
@Olivier5,
All the laymen arguing about this issue want to act like it's a scientific issue and that THEIR side has the right "science."

It aint about that. It's a political issue, that's all.
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Dec, 2015 03:48 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
I am interested to know what people here think of the idea.

I agree with the idea as far as it goes, but I think it doesn't go far enough: The assault in question is on something far broader than science, something that includes even basic fact-checking. A few examples:
  • Just a few years ago, a substantial majority of a leading American party (perhaps even the majority) believed that the president of the United States was a Muslim Atheist Kenyan, based on no evidence at all.

  • The Fourteenth Amendment of the United States constitution reads in important part: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States are citizens of the United States, and of the State in which they reside". (Notice the word "all" at the beginning?) The front-running presidential candidate of a leading American party, not coincidentally the same as above, reads this to mean that US-born children are not citizens if their parents are illegally-immigrated Mexicans. Evidently, the candidate hasn't read the constitution, or doesn't understand the word "all", or just doesn't care what's true.

  • To get nominated as a candidate for the above-mentioned party, climate-change denial, evolution-denial, and denial of teaching middle-school students the knowledge where babies come from are all mandatory.

Knowledge like this is far from being cutting-edge science anymore. And the list of politically-mandated assaults on it goes on and on.

Am I being too harsh on the right half of America's political spectrum? No. While some opposition to nuclear energy and genetically-modified organisms is anxiety-driven rather than fact-driven, its political influence in any of the three branches of government is negligible. Plus, there exist fact-driven arguments against them. (I find them unpersuasive overall, but they do exist.) So this problem is not at all symmetric politically. In America at least, there is an organized assault on anything related to fact-finding, including science, and its organizers are predominantly political conservatives.
 

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