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Government...and the promotion of virtue.

 
 
blatham
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:07 am
Re: Government...and the promotion of virtue.
Boy, am I behind in this discussion!

princesspupule wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ought government to be in the job of promoting 'virtue' in its citizenry?

A fundamental notion of the Straussian neoconservatives, now a powerful influence on this White House, is that government indeed ought to involve itself in raising the level of virtue of citizens. It's an interesting question and not a simple one, I think. I recently put the question to two friends, both thoughtful, well-educated and liberal of persuasion. The first, an education administrator replied, without pause, "Definitely not." The second, a writer and parole officer replied, again no delay, "Yes".


I'm not sure Straussian neoconserviatives believe government ought to promote virtue. Here is a quote from Leo Strauss' famous work, Natural Right and History. "The best regime is that in which the best men habitually rule, or aristocracy. Goodness is, if not identical with wisdom, at any rate dependent on wisdom: the best regime would seem to be the rule of the wise, In fact, wisdom appeared to the classics as that title to rule which is highest according to nature. It would be absurd to hamper the free flow of wisdom by any regulations; hence the rule of the wise must be absolute rule, It would be equally absurd to hamper the free flow of wisdom by consideration of the unwise wishes of the unwise; hence the wise rulers ought not to be responsible to the unwise subjects. To make the rule of the wise dependent on election by the unwise or consent of the unwise would mean to subject what is by nature higher to control by what is by nature lower, i.e., to act against nature." He seems to be promoting tyrrany, Blatham, not virtue.

I believe they do pay lip service to virtue, but only so far as it keeps the masses controllable. Think about the effect 9/11 had on the masses: it united a nation. It united most of the world in righteous indignation. Think about the messages we got fromour gov't after 9/11. "You are either with us, or with the terrorists." Most people saw the U.S. as representing the side of virtue. After all, we didn't turn airplanes into missiles, they did. All the good citizens of this nation waited to be told what to do by our president. Think about his messages about the rightness of this cause, we had to fight against the axis of evil... By doing what they've done, using the rhetoric they've chosen, they've already inflated the level of virtue in our citizens. Subtle, don't you think? Or scary?


That's a revealing, and typical, quote from Strauss. Pretty pure Platonism, isn't it? Those ideas sit in direct opposition to to the values which underlie democracy and representative government. They are, in other words, deeply and profoundly anti-American. Toss in the Straussian notion of 'the noble lie'...the notion that it is salutory and beneficient to lie through your teeth to those masses who elected you because they are really quite low and unworthy and unbright and don't have the time or inclination, what with their knuckle-walking natures, to get important things right.

I'm sorry, I wish I had my books with me here. I'll recommend once again "The Gang of Five" by Nina Easton for a good peek into how Bill Kristol and Bill Bennet (and all the other Straussians populating the modern Republican machine) feel about the populace's potential for acting virtuously without beneficent help from the elevated few (it's kind of a back-slapping har har response).
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Setanta
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:15 am
Plato was a complete putz. His ideal society, upon which he based his ludicrous "utopia" in The Republic, was Lacedaemon--the Spartans. Oh yes, a fanatically militarized, terminally paranoid slave state--now there's a winner for model republic.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:25 am
This time I fully agree with Setanta!
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Setanta
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:40 am
Well, George, i won't tell anyone if you don't . . .
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:45 am
Thank goodness America isn't militarized. Nor paranoid. If either were true, there might be cause for alertness.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:46 am
That would be scary . . . just ask the slaves down at Walmart . . .
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:56 am
One immediately wonders what a Walmart floor manager might define as the elements of virtue in regards to the folks stocking shelves and running checkstands under his tutelage? What might Walmart shareholders consider virtue in the folks running the operation? What might Walmart customers define as virtuous in Walmart's choice of offerings and claims to their quality? And, will I be able to buy an assault rifle at Walmart when President Bush allows the existing legislation to expire?
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ehBeth
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 10:57 am
Is Setanta in here talkin' about bein' virtuous? Does that mean he's gonna eat some green stuff today? Shocked
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:10 am
I instinctively reached for the mouse to start some reply in opposition to Blatham's. However, I caught myself just in time. I've never been in a Wallmart store! (However I am a paranoid militarist.)
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Setanta
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:24 am
ehBeth wrote:
Is Setanta in here talkin' about bein' virtuous? Does that mean he's gonna eat some green stuff today? Shocked


I reiterate . . . you darn girl . . .

Our George O'B wrote:
(However I am a paranoid militarist.)


I wouldn't have it any other way . . .
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:30 am
LOL...george, I always took you for a confident militarist. Walmart does have a druggist, and though trained in Guatemala, will be happy to dispense the required anti-paranoid meds. Of course, they'll be much cheaper up here.
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blatham
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:31 am
set...hang in there bud. Greens are the modern equivalent of a Delilah-shearing.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:32 am
Hey, the clip on the AR-15 only holds 18 rounds, your ad says i get a free 30-round banana clip with every purchase . . .

I'm sorry, Sir, i work in consumer electronics, just a sec' . . .

Customer service to aisle five . . . customer service to aisle five . . .
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:38 am
clanup is postal sorting aisle 3, bring extra mops and bullet-proof vests.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
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Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:50 pm
Setanta wrote:
Plato was a complete putz. His ideal society, upon which he based his ludicrous "utopia" in The Republic, was Lacedaemon--the Spartans. Oh yes, a fanatically militarized, terminally paranoid slave state--now there's a winner for model republic.


"Plato was a complete putz"

Good grief! Stop the presses and edit all history and philosophy texts!

Plato was a complete putz...who knew?
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Finn dAbuzz
 
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Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 12:05 am
blatham wrote:
One immediately wonders what a Walmart floor manager might define as the elements of virtue in regards to the folks stocking shelves and running checkstands under his tutelage? What might Walmart shareholders consider virtue in the folks running the operation? What might Walmart customers define as virtuous in Walmart's choice of offerings and claims to their quality? And, will I be able to buy an assault rifle at Walmart when President Bush allows the existing legislation to expire?


blatham

Can you appreciate how incredibly condescending this posting is?

Do you really believe that the millions of people who work and shop at Walmart are deserving of your disdain?

How can the Left sincerely champion the proletariate when they, in actuality, despise them?
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 05:02 am
Finn, Look past the "Putz" part of Setanta's statement that you quoted and you will see a profound truth about Plato. Perhaps one could call your remark a bit condescending as well.

Blatham is sadly in the grip of a number of Liberal (and of the worst Canadian variety) ideas and points of view. He is however trying to deal with them, and their tenuous relation to (conservative) reality. He often uses irony and humor (admittedly of a liberal bent, but humor nonetheless) to ventillate these struggles. Often the humor is quite good - I note his Walmart bit lightened up this thread for a while. Consider his remarks, if you will, in that light. The man is trying!
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 10:33 am
We don't despise the proletariat; rather, we are sad about their ability to be lead by the nose. It's depressing.

Cycloptichorn
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blatham
 
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Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 11:03 am
I despise everyone except my mother. And even she, passed on these many years, is beginning to smell up the east wing.

george...finn and I have, during your broadly bemoaned absence, developed a vital and robust relationship with, I confess, some titillating homosexual colorations.

My all-time favorite prof, a six foot six harmonium-playing and exceedingly bright Oxford boy (Robin Barrow, order up lots of books) remarked to me once that no other intellect so awed him as that of Plato. But Robin wouldn't have disagreed with Setanta's term.

There is no denying, I think, that Plato and Machiavelli and Leo Strauss and those around this administration who hold to the views of these men are on to powerful truths about human political organization. But the problem seems to me that the American experiment sits in direct opposition to those other notions. And that this experiment, which I and most of the western world are rooting for, may be viable. And that if we don't get straight about this conflict, that the experiment may fail, and with some rapidity.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Thu 19 Aug, 2004 11:34 am
Well I don't see anything Platonic in our Republican party. Perhaps you do - Fundamentalist, Straussian zealotry and all that. I believe those are relatively minor elements in the real mix here. We are decidedly Aristotilian down here.

(BTW I was quite impressed with your quick grasp and knowledge of Cicero's demise expressed in another threat. You and Set have me out of breath.)
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