23
   

In light of the Paris attacks, is it time to eradicate religion?

 
 
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 11:50 am
From the Washington Post
by By Miroslav Volf November 16

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/11/16/in-light-of-the-paris-attacks-is-it-time-to-eradicate-religion/

To be fair, the author does not seem in favor of ending religion. But these words identify the caveat in his argument:
Quote:
. . . the single most significant factor in determining whether a religion will be implicated in violence is the level of its identification with a political project and its entanglement with those striving to realize and protect that project.

Put the glove of religion on the hand of either a revolutionary or a statesman, and religion will be pulled into the dynamics of cohesion, control, acquisition and maintenance of power, and the marking of boundaries — and will more likely than not turn violent. In other words, align moral self-understanding of society, state and religion, and even most peaceful religion will become ready to “take up the gun.”
What do you think?
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 11:56 am
@neologist,
Perhaps you (and Mr Volf) should also examine the track records of the major anti religious political movements of the last few centuries. Hitler, Stalin and Mao together presented a murderous pattern in dealing with those who didn't conform to their preferred beliefs and behaviors that religious movements have only rarely and episodically matched. Moreover most of the historical competition and struggle between the Islamic and European Christian world was over territory and political control (as in North Africa (originally Christian) Spain and the Balkans.

These are rather obvious and prominent facts. I'm surprised that you didn't consider them.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 12:11 pm
@georgeob1,
I invite you to consider documents such as the Reichskonkordat.
You may Google it, if you don't remember it.
George
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 12:51 pm
A very interesting article.

I'm glad I read it all the way through.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 01:53 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Put the glove of religion on the hand of either a revolutionary or a statesman, and religion will be pulled into the dynamics of cohesion, control, acquisition and maintenance of power, and the marking of boundaries


The same could be said of many human sentiments, so what? You could, for example, substitute "patriotism" for religion here and arrive at exactly the same conclusion.

Quote:
“Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” (Samuel Johnson)


Quote:
Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this...(Albert Einstein)


neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 01:55 pm
@layman,
Many have reverence for the flag . . .
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 02:01 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Many have reverence for the flag . . .


As I do, Neo.

Don't never, NEVER, I SAY (!), run around tryin to diss America.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 02:10 pm
@neologist,
How does one eradicate an idea?
layman
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 02:22 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
How does one eradicate an idea?


We don't need to eradicate religion, per se, just Muslimism, that's all. As to how? We just use the same methods they have always used, to wit:

Convert, or die, ************.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 02:36 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
How does one eradicate an idea?
Good question.
I don't think Volf's article answers that.
The possibility seems extremely remote.
But it has been proposed before

Religion is often the handle used by political forces to accomplish their needs.
Is it the fault of religion?
Or, of the politicians?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 03:47 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

I invite you to consider documents such as the Reichskonkordat.
You may Google it, if you don't remember it.


I'm quite familiar with it. What is your point? Are you suggesting that the Nazis were patrons of religion?
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 03:50 pm
isn't it time to eradicate religion simply in light of religion itself?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 03:50 pm
More important would be to get rid of the capitalists . . . especially the Paddies.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:00 pm
@georgeob1,
neologist wrote:
I invite you to consider documents such as the Reichskonkordat.
You may Google it, if you don't remember it.
georgeob1 wrote:
I'm quite familiar with it. What is your point? Are you suggesting that the Nazis were patrons of religion?
Of course not. I'm suggesting the church (including Lutherans) was complicit in the Holocaust.

http://thmb.inkfrog.com/thumbn/neologist/GMU.jpg&size=256&gap=1
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:30 pm
@neologist,
Power is going to flow through whatever institutions exist, This is more of the simple minded bullshit that we so often see from the left that all one needs to do to change people and change reality is regulate the usage of tools, which accounts for that atrocious WP headline. The theologian who wrote the piece has no such idea as the eradication of religion:

Quote:
He argues for a reformation or return among world religions to three fundamental tenets that will help protect religions from political ideologies. "Many world religions today and throughout history have not embraced certain values precisely because they have misperceived themselves as 'political religions' rather than politically engaged religions," Volf said.

The three values Volf discusses are not unfamiliar: equal value of every human life, freedom of religion, and separation of "religion and rule."

He calls for reformation of religion to keep religion from being implicated every time a religious person fires a gun: "For the sake of the identity and reputation of the religions themselves and for the sake of justice and peace in the world, religions need permanent reformation."

http://www.christianexaminer.com/article/yale.professor.paris.terrorism.proves.world.religions.need.reformation/49796.htm
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:40 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

neologist wrote:
I invite you to consider documents such as the Reichskonkordat.
You may Google it, if you don't remember it.
georgeob1 wrote:
I'm quite familiar with it. What is your point? Are you suggesting that the Nazis were patrons of religion?
Of course not. I'm suggesting the church (including Lutherans) was complicit in the Holocaust.


How do you define "complicit" ? There were certainly Christians among the German forces engaged in the slaughter if that's what you mean. Beyond that, both Catholic and Lutheran clerics were involved in saving many potential victims of the Holocaust and many were victims themselves.

Your original point was that religion is particularly involved in such events, as compared to secular or atheistic organizations, and that eliminating religion might eliminate the main source of such events. I pointed out that modern history strongly suggests the opposite is true. On the whole religion appears to be a restraint - imperfect, but a restraint.

You have offered nothing to refute that rather evident observation.


How would you "eradicate religion"? Do you suppose that the forces able and willing to attempt this might themselves pose any danger to humanity? I offered you some prominent examples.
Thomas
 
  10  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:41 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
In light of the Paris attacks, is it time to eradicate religion?

I don't think it is time to change anything in the light of the Paris attacks. People make stupid decisions when they're freaked out, and in the grand scheme of things, terrorists are a far lesser threat to American lives than motorists are, anyway. I don't believe fighting terror should be a policy priority.

Would it be nice to eradicate religion? I would certainly like that, but we humans are incredibly inventive at finding reasons to believe in nonsense and kill each other over it. The day after we eradicate religion, I expect that people start killing each other over secular nonsense like communism, who gets to govern Northern Ireland, Crips vs Bloods, and whatnot.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:54 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
. . . Beyond that, both Catholic and Lutheran clerics were involved in saving many potential victims of the Holocaust and many were victims themselves. . .
Undoubtedly. There were many heroes.
But the churches as institutions failed to take a stand. The Reichskonkordat exemplifies the failings of mainstream German churches. In the world wars, Catholics killed Catholics. Lutherans killed Lutherans, both with the firm belief that God ordained their acts. All the while, both Catholics and Protestants as a group obeyed the Fuhrer.

Fast forward to Rwanda. Tutsi Catholics killed Hutu Catholics. Protestants killed protestants. Where were the church leaders? Sharpening their own machetes, I suppose.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:59 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
. . . we humans are incredibly inventive at finding reasons to believe in nonsense and kill each other over it. . .
Nothing to add here. . .
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2015 05:32 pm
@neologist,
What constitutes .. "failed to take a stand"?? Exactly what good might have come from it on the part of an organization with no military forces?? and in the midst of a continent-wide military conflagration?? Many others may also have "failed to take a stand" ranging from the major participants in the War with Germany to the governments of nearby "neutral" nations

You are merely reciting some rather shopworn platitudes, and ignoring the fact that your arguments, such as they are, would have the same impact if the word 'atheist' was substituted for 'religion'.

Just expressing the desire to "eradicate" any widespread form of human behavior suggests (to me at least) a rather worrisome inclination to authoritarian tyranny and worse. Indeed a good case (and one more logical than yours) can be made for the proposition that a large share of the misery in human history has come at the hands of reformers of every stripe who believed that they (alone) know best what is good for others and who are willing to enforce the good and eradicate the bad as they see it.

In short I think you fail to see your own intolerance as well as you see (or project) it in others.
 

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