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The inherent flaw with the War on Terror - Lmk if u disagree

 
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 10:53 pm
Regardless of whatever the heck your point is, it still doesn't support your assertion that just as many poor people there will still hate us and join up in or support terroists there regardless of whether we finally get off of our butts and do something to geniunely help them for once.

the backbone of terrorists, the people that support them, the people that join them, the people that hide them, are the poor people there striving to make ends meet. if we help these people out, there will be less terrorism against us.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2004 11:47 pm
Centroles wrote:
Regardless of whatever the heck your point is, it still
doesn't support your assertion that just as many poor people there will
still hate us and join up in or support terroists there regardless of whether
we finally get off of our butts and do something to geniunely help them
for once.

the backbone of terrorists, the people that support them, the people that
join them, the people that hide them, are the poor people there striving to
make ends meet. if we help these people out, there will be less terrorism
against us.

I have to conclude that you are simply not reading my posts at all. I
stated from the outset that I agree that paying people tends to make
them like you, and that we probably should do a better job of PR. My
only caveat was that there would still be just plain bad people whom we
would have no realistic choice but to fight.

Also, my point, which you seem to have so much trouble understanding,
was that you were wrong when you stated that for us not to convert to
Islam would be "just fine with them." It wouldn't be, since many are
motivated by a complete lack of religious tolerance.
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 06:21 am
so you're saying that you agree with my post and answered yes on the poll. we should give international aid, especailly o the poorest of countires where poverty is most likeyl to breed teroorism
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 07:17 am
Centroles wrote:
so you're saying that you agree with my post and
answered yes on the poll. we should give international aid, especailly o
the poorest of countires where poverty is most likeyl to breed teroorism

I agree that if you pay people they will like you more. That is blatantly
obvious. As I said, we could possibly even have paid off the Japanese
after their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor, not that it would have been
remotely appropriate to do so. I also agree that we ought to put more
planned effort into making people like us, and some of that will involve
buying their friendship.

I must emphasize, however, that there are just plain bad people or
religiously intolerant people who need to be opposed by force.
Also, I do not necessarily agree that we brought this on ourselves, or
have been doing these horrible things you insist we have been doing to
these Middle Eastern countries, and I note that you have repeatedly
stated, but never calmly documented, these claims.
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 06:23 pm
Oh, I see. Now you blame all the poor people living in arab regions for the terrorists attack that a small percentage fo them commit.

I see how this plan to help poor people there to show them that we are not as evil and selfish as we usally act and have no intention of destroying their livihood and win them over to our side would seem wrong to one who believes that all arabs, not just a few rich well funded ones, are responsible for 9/11.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 08:21 pm
Centroles wrote:
Oh, I see. Now you blame all the poor people living in
arab regions for the terrorists attack that a small percentage fo them
commit.

I certainly do not blame the poor people living in the Middle East for the
terrorist attacks a small percentage commit. I blame only the small
percentage. How do you get something like this out of anything I've said?

Centroles wrote:
...and win them over to our side would seem wrong
to one who believes that all arabs, not just a few rich well funded ones,
are responsible for 9/11.

Who on Earth believes that all Arabs are responsible for 9/11? Certainly
not I. I believe that only the specific people who participated in the
planning or execution of 9/11 are responsible. Are you completely
insane?
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Aug, 2004 11:55 pm
If you don't blame all arabs for the terrorist attacks, then why do you think it would be so wrong to actually send some aid to them?

You were the one that said that that would be equivalent to us giving Japan money after they bombed pearl harbor. How could you compare us sending aid to poor arab regions and poor arab people to giving money to Japan (when the Japanese govt. purposefully attacked us) unless you believe that the poor arab people themselves were responsible for 9/11. Had I suggested that we give money and aid to the terrorists, that would have been a fair comparison. But that's not what I said, I said that we should give aid to poor arab, not the rich terrorists who financed and carried out 9/11. So the only way the comparion to Japan (where the majority of people supported what the govt. was doing) would hold up is if you considered almost all poor arabs to be terrorists who supported and helped bring about 9/11.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Aug, 2004 05:37 am
Centroles wrote:
If you don't blame all arabs for the terrorist attacks,
then why do you think it would be so wrong to actually send some aid to
them?

You were the one that said that that would be equivalent to us giving
Japan money after they bombed pearl harbor. How could you compare us
sending aid to poor arab regions and poor arab people to giving money to
Japan (when the Japanese govt. purposefully attacked us) unless you
believe that the poor arab people themselves were responsible for 9/11.
Had I suggested that we give money and aid to the terrorists, that would
have been a fair comparison. But that's not what I said, I said that we
should give aid to poor arab, not the rich terrorists who financed and
carried out 9/11. So the only way the comparion to Japan (where the
majority of people supported what the govt. was doing) would hold up is if
you considered almost all poor arabs to be terrorists who supported and
helped bring about 9/11.

1. Sure, have a two pronged approach of giving help inlcuding money,
but also fighting aggressively the people who are simply evil. However,
when we give money, do not get confused and believe that their problems
are our fault.

2. I do not agree that we have done all of these horrible things to these
people and you have done no more than claim it without specific
examples.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Aug, 2004 10:11 am
Quote:
Sure, have a two pronged approach of giving help inlcuding money,
but also fighting aggressively the people who are simply evil. However,
when we give money, do not get confused and believe that their problems
are our fault.


The answer to the problem is not to 'give money.' You can't just throw money at the region and expect it to stabilize....

Instead of saying 'giving money,' why don't you be a little more realistic and say 'change our policies which lead their countries into financial ruin'? That would be a much more effective solution, and one that needs to be outlined more than just saying 'giving money.'

Quote:
However,
when we give money, do not get confused and believe that their problems
are our fault.


Um, a lot of the problems they have there ARE our fault, for supporting (creating) an economic model designed to keep the rich ruling class rich, and keep the poor peasants poor. We've known the effect our actions have had on the region for years, and yet we've done nothing but perpetuate the system (if not make it worse) by throwing up our hands and saying 'it's not our problem, it's your problem.'

Now we are reaping what we've sown. In order to solve the problems of terrorism, we must be willing to go to the source of the problem.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Aug, 2004 03:17 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Um, a lot of the problems they have there ARE
our fault, for supporting (creating) an economic model designed to keep
the rich ruling class rich, and keep the poor peasants poor. We've known
the effect our actions have had on the region for years, and yet we've
done nothing but perpetuate the system (if not make it worse) by
throwing up our hands and saying 'it's not our problem, it's your problem.'

Now we are reaping what we've sown. In order to solve the problems of
terrorism, we must be willing to go to the source of the problem.
Cycloptichorn

1. You've done nothing but make unsubstantiated claims that their
problems are our fault. If it wasn't clear before, I challenge you to give
specific evidence in support of this belief.
2. Sometimes the "source of the problem" is that the terrorists do bad
things for their own reasons with little or no ethical justification, for
example are religiously intolerant and insist that we convert to their
religion.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Aug, 2004 05:21 pm
Quote:
You've done nothing but make unsubstantiated claims that their
problems are our fault. If it wasn't clear before, I challenge you to give
specific evidence in support of this belief.


I'm going to break it down into some simple questions, which I would like you to answer, Brandon.

1. Is the US involved in a process which removes the natural resources from one country and uses them in another country, in large amounts?

2. Does the vast majority of the money that we pay for said resources go to the people of that country, or to its' leaders?

3. Are we aware of the fact that said leaders do not support the economies of their countries with said money, but rather re-invest it in the western countries?

4. Are we aware of the massive human rights violations perpetrated by some (if not most) of these countries?

I think you would have a hard time saying that any of those were untrue.

That being the case, we are participating in a system which is screwing over the common man of the middle east royally. I certainly don't have to explain this to you; you already understand how it works. You just refuse to believe that our actions have any reprecussions whatsoever, or that those reprecussions could be partially our fault.


From U.S. Oil Policy in the Middle East, 1997:
Quote:
Emphasizing defense of the oil states from external threats ignores the more serious problems of domestic instability and political opposition to the ruling Gulf monarchies. The U.S. should engage these governments on questions of accountability to their citizens and their own constitutions and urge them to open up their systems to allow for greater public participation.

Only through serious steps toward democratization can these governments avoid the destabilization of Islamic and liberal activism. Kuwait is an example where even limited steps toward democratization reinforced stability and helped undermine security threats to the monarchy. Kuwait's Shi'i, 25% of the population, participated in the (male-only) parliamentary elections and won many seats. The U.S. could save tens of millions of dollars in military spending in the Gulf oil states, and perhaps U.S. lives as well, if the socioeconomic and political conditions of the most deprived Shi'i populations were improved.


linkage


From Causes of terrorism:
Quote:
While on the surface, these may seem like completely unrelated events, they all embody a similar core philosophy. These conflicts are each characterized by having one group which sees itself as being tragically oppressed, and seeks freedom or prosperity through the annihilation of an 'evil' group of oppressors. Sound familiar? It should. The comparison between the scenarios mentioned above and the situation that prompted the September 11th attacks is obvious. America is the perceived oppressor at which Bin Laden directs all of his rage.


linkage

There are valid, psychological reasons why people join terrorist organizations. Remember, for all that Bin Laden hates the US, and wants us to 'convert to Islaam(yeah, right)' the average terrorist who joins his ranks, who fleshes out his army, is angry. Angry with the fact that we keep making their leaders rich, and keeping them poor, while not giving a damn about the atrocities their governments perform upon them. These are cold, rational thoughts when you or I talk about them; the future terrorist sees the reality of the situation.

To return to your original statement, Brandon, it seems rather childish to believe that we are not responsible for the region. It seems equally childish to believe that the terrorists are acting in a vacuum, and nothing we have done has made them come to the current place they are at, at all.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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