5
   

Discrimination that gamers experience

 
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 02:49 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
why do you think this video produced a violent backlash (since you say it is understandable.)


I see what you did there (and it was clever, but no). The violent backlash is not understandable.

The reasoned criticism of Anita Sarkeesian is understandable.

My daughter is home and started to watch the video with me, I was hoping to get her input. She got bored really quickly. I didn't have any bad reaction to this video.

From reading a little on the internet, there is a feeling in the gaming community that she has too much influence.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 02:58 pm
@maxdancona,
After watching the video, I had a couple of thoughts.

1) I think she has point about the overuse of the "damsel in distress".

2) Her discussion about the proposed female hero turning into a damsel (I forget the name of the game) was her best point. She seems to be particularly targeting this one Japanese game designer.

3) She makes my point about video games following popular culture. She points out similar themes in Greek Mythology and earlier American pop culture.

4) She doesn't answer the question of the "role" of video games in reflecting popular culture. Her assumption seems to be that video games should challenge these in popular art and fiction rather than paralleling it.

5) On at east one of her examples, I think she misses the fact that game is obviously parodying (rather than supporting) the cultural stereotype. This would be like accusing South Park of being racist because it has a Black character named "Token".

6) She is also cherry picking her examples. She doesn't the games that break the pattern, or change it in some way.

engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:01 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

My daughter is home and started to watch the video with me, I was hoping to get her input. She got bored really quickly.

That's too bad. It is pretty long, but her input would have been interesting. I played all those old games so I could follow along. There is another one with more modern games she might find more engaging.

maxdancona wrote:
From reading a little on the internet, there is a feeling in the gaming community that she has too much influence.

Why do they feel that way? If she has so much influence, how does that influence manifest? Has she killed a game? (She has inspired one after gamers created a game where you could rape and kill her.) Remember, that video that you didn't have a reaction to is the one that prompted the gamer backlash. You don't have a problem with it. Why would anyone? As far as I can tell, a few designers have said, "yeah, I see your point" and the total extent of her influence is that she is occasionally asked to speak at a conference. Isn't that what having a civil debate is about? Is the reaction to her just because she dared to say "I play video games and I noticed something we can do better"?

You brought her up, make the argument against her.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:07 pm
@maxdancona,
The biggest question of course, is what do her observations mean on a big sense.

Should video games (like other popular art) use themes in popular culture to tell stories that are compelling to the intended audience?

How much should academics reach down into popular culture in order to change themes that they find objectionable? Or, should popular art be allowed to exist on its own without external influence?

If we are going to be using academic thought about what popular culture should be, do we run the risk of the art being less real or less applicable to what people actually feel or experience.

Ms. Sarkeesian's objections to Legos are an example of a case where this was more obviously silly than the video you linked to. Lego got together a bunch of young girls in a focus group to develop new products. Ms. Sarkeesian was upset that they choose purple and pink as prominent colors. No matter how politically correct the adults around them... it is still a fact that most boys want guns and most girls want friends. Sometimes reality is "misogynistic".

Using the standards that Anita Sarkeesian is using, is there any popular culture that meets her goals of gender equality? The goal of popular art to is to express the ideas of the artist and the fantasy of the audience. Good popular art is both challenging and enjoyable. I don't think having popular art respond to academic criticism is a good thing.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:07 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Remember, that video that you didn't have a reaction to is the one that prompted the gamer backlash.


Because is is according to many if not most demanding that the industry make more boring games. Young men have been completely shafted is this culture, good video games is one of the bright spots, anyone who works to take that away is going to come up against an lot of animosity, that fact that the argument for taking them away is PC rules makes the threat even more galling.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:10 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Should video games (like other popular art) use themes in popular culture to tell stories that are compelling to the intended audience?

How much should academics reach down into popular culture in order to change themes that they find objectionable? Or, should popular art be allowed to exist on its own without external influence?

If we are going to be using academic thought about what popular culture should be, do we run the risk of the art being less real or less applicable to what people actually feel or experience.


All of this goes to illuminating the war the elite launched upon the little people. You see in the current presidential race some of the blowback.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
All of this goes to illuminating the war the elite launched upon the little people. You see in the current presidential race some of the blowback.


Sorry Hawkeye. I don't think you and I are on the same page.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:16 pm
@maxdancona,
I think her point is that children are playing these games and they enforce these roles. She has sequels to this video that discuss more modern games, but the point is that boys get to play the heroes and girls, well they get to play boys being heroes. Stereotypes shape the games, games enforce the stereotypes. That doesn't make the games bad (she says this directly), but we can have alternatives. Academics are not dictating video games, they are pointing out that you can make a great game without falling into the same old reliable plots.
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:26 pm
@engineer,
I have not read her reviews of them, but one of my favorite games that features complex characters (both men and women) is the Uncharted series. While you do play as the guy, the women run, shoot and climb just like the guys. Nor are they romantic pushovers. The Destiny game (which is about has hot as you can get right now) allows you to play as either gender with no game play differences.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:28 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Academics are not dictating video games, they are pointing out that you can make a great game without falling into the same old reliable plots.

Until something different sell this is theory not fact. Somebody should put some money behind the theory and get something innovative made, put it on the market, and then we will know. Talk is not going to prove anything. That is what happened with "porn for women". We found out that it does not work, now we know.

Quote:
“There is definitely an audience for feminist-friendly porn, just a small audience and a small fraction of women overall. What is fascinating is that women commonly promote the idea of feminist porn and socially want to believe in it. Activists argue that there needs to be more of it, women support it in public and I see women start erotic websites all the time. But when it comes down to it, that is just not what they are interested in looking at,” he said.

In contrast, Rowntree says female-friendly porn is important in contemporary society regardless of one’s views on pornography because it is an extension of the way that women have explored and expressed their sexuality throughout history.

“To me, it’s important that there’s porn made by and for women, to ensure that at least some of the porn on the market emphasizes a woman’s pleasure and the feminine perspective. It’s important that there are depictions available that show people having real sex, experiencing real, mutual pleasure, and not just something that satisfies male-dominant fantasies….Whenever women have been open about their sexuality, or god forbid, assertive with our sexuality, you can count on a certain number of people freaking out about it, and looking for ways to shame and silence us,” she said.



http://www.salon.com/2014/04/14/what_kind_of_porn_turns_women_on_partner/

I am confident that as with "porn made for women" games that rescue the hunk in distress would fail at the marketplace, they are not wanted by enough people to justify make very much of it. Another big problem with getting these games made is that the majority of creators are males, and they are not interested in making games that suck.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:30 pm
@engineer,
Do you believe that traditional gender roles as part of our shared cultural understand are going away? I think that we are getting a lot better at being tolerant at people who break that traditional gender roles. The idea that we are going to get rid of gender stereotypes I think has been discredited (correct me if I am wrong).

So we are in the midst of a discussion in our culture about how gender roles should change.

I recently started dating again, now in my late 40s. This is a very interesting learning experience... I am meeting women and engaging in a courtship ritual that is rather uncertain. There are expectations, and traditions and beliefs and desires, and a mix of pressures including previous experience and yes.. ideas about feminism and equality. All of these are changing and no one seems quite sure about how things should be now.

The question of who pays for dinner is even an interesting one.

One thing I am learning is that gender roles are important. I have not met a woman who doesn't want to be "treated like a lady" (many say exactly that). Even the most strong, confident women who identify themselves as "feminist" want there to be some gender roles. I have not met anyone who has wanted to be treated with true "equality" where both people take equal initiative and equal consideration.

Of course exactly how this works out in any particular relationship can be a little confusing.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:30 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
The Destiny game (which is about has hot as you can get right now) allows you to play as either gender with no game play differences.

Sure. females can be very masculine. The question is though are creators going to be punished for creating female characters who play feminine? Your example misses the point.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:32 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Stereotypes shape the games, games enforce the stereotypes.


That was a bit of a tangent on my part... but the question is, if we accept that "stereotypes" in the form of gender roles are part of society... who gets to shape them?

Popular art is an organic part of the culture and its their role in shaping and reflecting the cultural stereotypes is a natural one.

Having an academic interfere with this process based on some theory of equality might not be as good.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:34 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
One thing I am learning is that gender roles are important. I have not met a woman who doesn't want to be "treated like a lady" (many say exactly that). Even the most strong, confident women who identify themselves as "feminist" want there to be some gender roles. I have not met anyone who has wanted to be treated with true "equality" where both people take equal initiative and equal consideration.


No No No, reality is not supposed to play any role in the debate! It is not about what people want, it is about what we should be allowed to have. Drunk
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 03:38 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
That was a bit of a tangent on my part... but the question is, if we accept that "stereotypes" in the form of gender roles are part of society... who gets to shape them?


Each individual. You allow everything out there and let people have what they want. If not enough people want it it will not be made. We dont need decisions made by power on what we can have and what we can not have, in fact we should insist that we dont have power deciding anything on "stereotypes". Those who think they are smart enough to boss us around need to be put down. I dont need bullies deciding for me what I should want and what I can have.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 04:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Sure. females can be very masculine. The question is though are creators going to be punished for creating female characters who play feminine? Your example misses the point.

Then play Uncharted. Unfortunately, you cannot play as one of the main female characters, but the characters are definitively female, well acted and are not in any way victims. (In Uncharted 2, one alternates between the good guys and the bad guys and keeps you guessing which side she is on.)
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 04:07 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
Unfortunately, you cannot play as one of the main female characters, but the characters are definitively female, well acted and are not in any way victims. (In Uncharted 2, one alternates between the good guys and the bad guys and keeps you guessing which side she is on.)


Why do I find you equating "feminine" with "victim"?
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 06:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Because in the posts above we were talking about the typical depiction of women in video games as a victim who needs to be saved by the male protagonist. There is a video discussing it several posts up.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 07:08 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Do you consider the death threats against Kim Davis (county clerk who refused to authorize same sex marriage licenses) in the same way you consider the death threats against Anita Sarkeesian?

Both of these women jumped into the public limelight on contentious issues. I have never seen the threats against Kim Davis listed as an example of misogyny.

Are they an example of misogyny?

Yes, I consider them the same and yes I consider them misogyny. Making credible threats of physical and sexual violence is a frequent tactic against women who express opinions on contentious issues.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Nov, 2015 07:10 pm
@engineer,
Have you heard the story about the father who hacked the Donkey Kong game for his daughter to switch the characters, so Mario was kidnapped and the Princess jumped over barrels to save him?

I thought that was a cool story.
0 Replies
 
 

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