1
   

Florida Republican go for a paper ballot.

 
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 11:48 am
doglover wrote:
However, to force your beliefs on other people who do not agree with you, that is morally reprehensible.[/color]


Forcing your beliefs on others? You mean like the Northen states going to war with the southern states to force them to give up sleavery? School desegregation? Forced busing? Where all of those "morally reprehensible"? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 11:56 am
Yes, Brandon, we are a nation of laws. In case you are unaware of the current laws on abortion, I would recommend you study Roe vs Wade.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 12:01 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yes, Brandon, we are a nation of laws. In case you are unaware of the current laws on abortion, I would recommend you study Roe vs Wade.

Yes, imposter, I know that we're a nation of laws and not men. I know about the social contract, etc. However, I was talking about moral right and wrong. Sometimes the law is right, and sometimes it's wrong. Now what does this have to do with the assertion that Republicans are planning to win the election by fraud?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 12:04 pm
"Moral right" is very subjective to individuals. It's humanly impossible to make laws that will satisfy everybody.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 12:04 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I've never understood the lefts hatred of babies.


You understand precious little of anything.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 12:07 pm
Brandon, I refer you to Krugman's article posted earlier. If you don't see that as fraud on the part of the republicans, I don't know what will convince you.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 12:27 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Brandon, I refer you to Krugman's article posted earlier. If you don't see that as fraud on the part of the republicans, I don't know what will convince you.


lmao. And I'll refer you to the St. Petersburg Times article I posted earlier that Krugman claims to be his "source". To bad it doesn't say anything near what he claims it says. The only fraud there is Krugman.
0 Replies
 
doglover
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 01:13 pm
fishin' wrote:
doglover wrote:
However, to force your beliefs on other people who do not agree with you, that is morally reprehensible.[/color]


Forcing your beliefs on others? You mean like the Northen states going to war with the southern states to force them to give up sleavery? School desegregation? Forced busing? Where all of those "morally reprehensible"? Rolling Eyes


You're mixing apples and oranges.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 01:51 pm
doglover wrote:
fishin' wrote:
doglover wrote:
However, to force your beliefs on other people who do not agree with you, that is morally reprehensible.[/color]


Forcing your beliefs on others? You mean like the Northen states going to war with the southern states to force them to give up sleavery? School desegregation? Forced busing? Where all of those "morally reprehensible"? Rolling Eyes


You're mixing apples and oranges.

In what way?

Do you mean that forcing your ethics on people is good, but your opponents forcing their ethics on people is bad?
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:36 pm
I'm still looking through the voter-list purges:

http://members.aol.com/digasa/stats51.htm

The Wrong Way To Fix the Vote
By Gregory Palast

If you liked the way Florida handled the presidential vote in November, you'll just love the election reform laws that have passed since then in 10 states, and have been proposed in 16 others.

These laws mandate a practice that was at the heart of the Florida debacle: computer-aided purging of centralized voter files. The laudable aim is to rid registries of the names of the dead, as well as of felons and others legally barred from voting. But the likely result will be the elimination of a lot of legitimate voters and an increased potential for political mischief.

Traditionally, American voter registries are managed at the county level, and they've been managed pretty well. Certainly there are flaws, but in the overwhelming majority of cases these are clerical errors, not election fraud. Think about it: A citizen dies, another one leaves town. But the dead guy doesn't vote, and the one who moved simply registers and votes from his new home. No harm, no foul.

Trying to cure that relatively minor problem by creating a single, statewide database of voters is overkill. More importantly, it cannot be counted on to fix a very different problem that really is worth worrying about -- purposeful voter fraud. Rather, it creates the potential for new errors on a much greater scale and opens to the door to political manipulations that are harder to detect than the old ballot-stuffing games, and nearly impossible to prosecute.
In Florida, a state-run purge removed thousands of legal voters -- more than half of them black -- in the months leading up to last fall's election. Most had no idea what had happened until they showed up at the polls. As the U.S. Civil Rights Commission wrote in a report made public last week, it was this "widespread voter disenfranchisement" -- much more than any hanging chads or butterfly ballots -- that was the "extraordinary feature" of the dubious Florida vote.


What happened there in 2000 can too easily be repeated in 2002 and thereafter, anywhere computer- aided purges are mandated.

Florida adopted its purge program in the aftermath of the 1997 Miami mayoral race, which was so marred by crooked voting that courts later reversed the outcome. The state contracted with Database Technologies (which soon was bought by ChoicePoint Inc. of Atlanta) to compile a central list of Floridians who were ineligible to vote -- notably, convicted felons -- and cross-match them with voter rolls.

In June 2000, on the basis of ChoicePoint's results, the Florida Division of Elections ordered county election officials to remove from their registries some 58,000 residents unless the counties had evidence that they were not in fact convicted felons.

One of those 58,000 was Linda Howell, who says she has never committed a felony. Her protest was immediately taken seriously, since she happens to be Madison County's election supervisor. The false accusation shook her faith in the purge process: "It really is a mess," she told me afterward.

Another was the Rev. Willie D. Whiting Jr. In fact, Whiting's rap sheet contains a single traffic ticket. His biggest "crime" was his resemblance on paper to Willie J. Whiting (no Jr.), a convicted felon born two days after the reverend.

Fortunately, Whiting lives in Leon County -- which, alone among Florida's 67 counties, independently researched every name on its scrub list. The county could only verify that 34 of the 694 cited -- 5 percent - - had criminal records. Because officials were skeptical of the list, Whiting was able to convince them he should be permitted to vote when he turned up on Election Day.

Researchers from Salon.com who investigated the lists in 13 Florida counties found that at least 15 percent of the names should not have been there. ChoicePoint spokesmen subsequently told me they don't dispute that figure, and they consider it a reasonable rate of error.

However, the company also defends its scrub list as "accurate" -- because its standard is that the list accurately records all names found in accordance with the specifications devised by the stateofficials who supervised the work.

And that's the problem.

The reason so many wrong names ended up on the scrub list is that Florida ordered ChoicePoint to input questionably broad matching criteria into its sophisticated computer programs. According to various statements by ChoicePoint officials, the criteria were:

First four letters of the first name. Middle initial. Gender. At least 80 percent of the letters in the last name. Approximate date of birth. Last four digits of Social Security number when available -- which was not often, since fewer than 10 percent of Floridians had that number on their voter registration forms. Certain variations were also programmed in (Willie could match William; John Richard could match Richard John).

There are a lot of Whitings and Howells -- and Browns and Brownes and Harwoods and Haywoods - - so given these rough standards, massive misidentification was almost guaranteed.

The results were then skewed because of another piece of data passed on to local officials: the voter's race. Next to every alleged felon's name was the designation "BLA" or "WHI." This meant that if someone named, say, John Smith was identified as a felon, and 10 matches came up, only the ones of the same race were likely to be purged. This is logical, but consider the implications: Since about half of felony convictions involve African Americans -- while barely one in seven Floridians are black -- this methodology ensured that a disproportionate number of law-abiding black voters would be disenfranchised.

If Salon's 15 percent error figure is right -- and data like Leon County's indicates it ismuch higher -- almost 9,000 of the 58,000 names on the scrub list belonged to rightful voters. (Furthermore, 2,883 other names belonged to people convicted of felonies in states that restore voting privileges after a sentence is served. These people were also purged -- even though they should not have lost their civil rights merely by moving to Florida.)

Database experts say the state could have reduced mismatches to one in 500 by expanding the match criteria -- making name matches more specific and adding such elements as current and prior address and suffixes like "Jr."

But Florida officials counter that if they had done that, they would have erred equally in the opposite direction -- allowing ineligible people to vote.

You would think other states would run from Florida's methods. But in their current legislative sessions, Colorado, Indiana, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, Georgia, Kansas, Montana and Washington have passed bills that -while varying in specifics -- would follow the Sunshine State's lead in centralizing, computerizing and cleansing voter rolls. Sen. Christopher S. Bond (R-Mo.) has introduced a bill in which certain conditions in any state would trigger mandatory voter list purges.

To a largeextent, these bills are a response to "motor voter" legislation, which has added millions of citizens, particularly minorities, to voter registries. Since minority voters tend to be Democratic, it is not surprising that motor voter laws are popular among Democrats, and most of the bills attempting to purge the rolls are sponsored by Republicans.

But many factors go into the ill-advised rush to reform. Take the case of Georgia.

The day before the November election, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and WSB-TV jointly reported that records indicated that deceased Georgians had voted 5,412 times over the last 20 years. They specifically cited one Alan J. Mandel, who apparently cast his ballot in three separate elections after his demise in 1997.

Subsequently, a very live Alan J. Mandell (note the two L's) told the secretary of state that local election workers had accidentally checked off the wrong name on the list. That may or may not explain what really happened -- but in the midst of the chad-mania that dominated the headlines last fall, details became less important than the newly energized drive for so-called reform. Under a law signed April 18, Georgia's secretary of state controls "list maintenance" and, for example, has taken over the power of deleting the names of dead voters.

This is too big a response to a little problem. In a state of 8 million people, 5,412 possibly bad votes -- not in one election, but in all the primaries, local elections and general elections that were held over 20 years -- is an extremely small number. If reformers really want to clean up voting lists, they should consider more funding for local election boards so they can do the job more directly, and better.
The centralization of state voter registries hands an all-too-tempting monopoly to whichever party controls the office of secretary of state. The highly technical (and, where contractors are involved, commercially confidential) nature of computer-aided purges makes bias in the cleansing of supposed felons, deceased voters and duplicate voters astonishingly easy to carry out and difficult to uncover.


Even uncovered, apparent bias is difficult to challenge. Florida officials defend their methods, saying they wanted to cast the widest net to catch the highest number of ineligible voters. Who is to say that, despite the devastating racial imbalance in the roster of those wrongly purged, Florida chose the wrong match criteria? One Florida Democratic leader admitted to me (on condition of anonymity) that, if he and his party had control of the voter files, they would have been tempted to pick some elimination criteria of their own.

After all, one man's overzealous purge is another man's inauguration.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Palast, who has worked as a consultant to 19 states on government regulation, investigated the Florida vote for BBC television, the Observer of London, Salon.com and the Nation magazine.
© 2001 The Washington Post Company
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:50 pm
Now careful, panz, someone is going to post that Palast is a liberal and completely invalidate your evidence.

(They think.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:54 pm
fishin, If you can read, please attempt to read the following from the St Petersburg Times.
**********************************

GOP flier questions new voting equipment; [SOUTH PINELLAS Edition]
STEVE BOUSQUET. St. Petersburg Times. St. Petersburg, Fla.: Jul 29, 2004. pg. 1.B
Full Text (727 words)
Copyright Times Publishing Co. Jul 29, 2004
While Gov. Jeb Bush reassures Floridians that touch screen voting machines are reliable, the Republican Party is sending the opposite message to some voters.

The GOP urged some Miami voters to use absentee ballots because touch screens lack a paper trail and cannot "verify your vote."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:55 pm
Who's the fraud? You, fishin, is the fraud.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:56 pm
Palast is probably a liberal fer sure seeing how he writes for the Post. But I'm just pointing out that a lot of people in North Central Florida are writing angry letters to the editor about this shameful episode. Or so I've been reading in the last few months.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 02:57 pm
Thank you CI, I was just about to email Krugman because I could not find this article either.

Do you have a link for this?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 03:04 pm
Acquink, I just went to the web site for St Petersburg Times, and typed in some key words. I think what worked was "flyer recommends absentee ballots" or some such.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 03:05 pm
BTW, I think using the writer's name will bring it up faster.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 03:20 pm
This is the headline to the article Krugman quoted in his New York Times article.

GOP flier questions new voting equipment; [SOUTH PINELLAS Edition]STEVE BOUSQUET. St. Petersburg Times. St. Petersburg, Fla.: Jul 29,

This is a quote

"While Gov. Jeb Bush reassures Floridians that touch screen voting machines are reliable, the Republican Party is sending the opposite message to some voters.
The GOP urged some Miami voters to use absentee ballots because touch screens lack a paper trail and cannot "verify your vote."
That's the same argument Democrats have made but which Bush, his elections director and Republican legislators have repeatedly rejected.
"The liberal Democrats have already begun their attacks and the new electronic voting machines do not have a paper ballot to verify your vote in case of a recount," says a glossy mailer, paid for by the Republican Party of Florida and prominently featuring two pictures of President Bush. "Make sure your vote counts. Order your absentee ballot today."
The GOP tactic is the reverse of what Bush and state elections experts have said as they have repeatedly opposed Democratic moves, in the Legislature and courts, to require a paper trail on the machines."



This is the linkSt Petersburg Times
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 03:31 pm
Re: Florida Republican go for a paper ballot.
fishin' wrote:

It looks like Krugman is making things up again.

.... but it isn't beyond Krugman to stretch things to fit his own view of the world.


fishin you accused Krugman of "making things up" and therefore publishing false information in the NYTimes. I couldn't find the article either but I think we can trust the Times editors and fact checkers to at least get a quote from a news article right.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 04:25 pm
That's the same response I had; the NYT is going to confirm the information wirtten by it's writers. But over and beyond that, although I don't trust all college professors and/or writers, Krugman has been shown to write based on factual information - even though left-leaning. I'll do the same for any conservative writers; check out the source information before making accusations that the writer gave false information. Besides, it doesn't take that much effort to get to the source of newspaper articles.
0 Replies
 
 

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