Sexism today

I am making a very simple argument here.

Women should be equal to men. Men should be equal to women.

I accept that in many ways in Western culture women have not been equal to men. I agree that women have equal places in corporate boards and equal political power. We probably agree completely on things like fair pay and abortion rights.

Where we disagree is the opposite side of the equality. In some ways men have not been equal to women. The biggest example of this is custody and mans role as parents in general. (There are other examples such as sentencing and support for male victims of rape).

The frustrating part of this discussion is the idea that you can't support both woman's rights and men's rights. This is simply not true.

Why not just support equality.

don´t use that condescending tone with me... you don´t know me either

first: i haven´t ever call you "machisto"
second: don´t pull the offended sarcasm... if my opinion get to be labeled as a "straw man" you get to be told again to read my comment carefully.... "femsplain" and words like that is what you use to mock a woman that gives as hard as she takes... really? pretty mature, man...

You called me "honey". This is a condescending term. Many people consider use of terms like "sweetheart" and "honey" to be sexist. Do you?

I don't see where I have been condescending to you. I am disagreeing with you, but I have never insulted you personally... and I certainly have not used gender insensitive terms in my interaction with you. You have used words like "machismo" several times to put down ideas you didn't like. I don't know why you are using these words, but they feel like personal attacks.

Let's stick to the facts.

Are you really interested in a dialogue.... remember that a dialogue is where we both acknowledge that there are two sides to the issue, and then discuss our differences and areas of agreement respectfully.

I am all for a dialogue. And I am all for looking at both sides of any issue surrounding sexism from more than one perspective.

Are you?

when you dismiss my answer as straw man and say i expected better, it certainly sounded patronizing and condescending... i stroke back by using honey in a condescending tone (you picked immediately)
i haven´t use gender insensitive terms with you
when i consider an idea to maschista: i would say exactly that... when i don´t like or agree with an idea i simply say i don´t agree with that. I don´t like to be treated in a condescending way but i don´t consider it to be machista at all.

if you use worlds like femsplain, radical and hating feminist women and call european cultures as oppressive and tyrannic cultures, that felt like personal attacks cause i am a feminist and european) and put words in my mouth i have never said... im sorry to say i consider myself with the right to call you Honey in a condescending tone as long as you don´t agree to give back what you ask for

I used the term "straw man" according to its exact definition. Disagreement is not condescension.

I am pushing on culture because feminism itself is a cultural artifact. That wasn't meant as a personal attack. I myself am European and descended from a tyrannical past. The point about culture is that when you are judging other cultures, you have to realize that you come with your own cultural history and perspective. It is difficult to step out of your own cultural biases to view cultures objectively. Indigenous cultures are to this day complaining about our continued cultural imperialism. Given our past... I think they have a very valid point.

I wasn't really insulted at you calling me "honey". I was pushing on you because it is ironic. Actually the gender imbalance makes me laugh (if a man calls a woman honey, it would cause an outrage). I don't really offend easily.

I am pushing you out of your Western European feminist perspective Momoends, to challenge you to see things from another perspective. When you look at feminism from the outside (or when you look at Western culture in general) it doesn't always make sense.

so if a certain culture kill newborns monthly to praise a god they worship, you would say it´s ok cause it´s their culture and should be respected?

second: who gave you the idea im a privileged woman blinded by western european whatever bra bla?

1. There are cultures that believe that killing fetuses is barbaric... equivalent to killing babies. Yet in our culture we call it abortion and say that it is a legal right of a woman. (For the record, I am part of modern Western culture and believe that it is the legal right of a woman to choose an abortion).

It is easy to see the practices of other cultures using the terms and values of your own culture. Multiculturalism says you make the simplistic judgement, but that you try to see things from the perspective of the other culture. This doesn't mean that you won't still be horrified even after doing this.

But you should at least recognize that there are other perspectives.

2. Being "privileged" is an important concept in American culture right now. Until I just read your post, I didn't realize that this concept might not be applicable in Spain. We talk a lot about "White Privilege" in the US right now.

I am curious about how this translates to Spain (or if it translates at all).

3. I believe that everyone is blinded by their own culture. We are all born into a culture and are taught ideas and values for all of our lives. These ideas and values of our culture seem like truth to us (since we have been surrounded by them for all of our lives).

It is difficult, and it takes a lot of work, to step out of your own culture to see things from a new perspective. I have been lucky to have experienced a couple of different cultures. This is a great experience for anyone.


(I am trying to use good English.... when I start to think too fast, my grammar goes to Hell even when I am speaking my native language.)

white privilege as if privilege individuals in the united states are mainly white people? what does that concept involve? exclusive schools,,..?
i have experience a couple of different cultures too, some by coexisting on daily basis.... english, german, austriacos, jordanian, greek, italian, french and japanese... i´ve also been in bali, portugal and thailand...
if you go further than getting out of your own cultural cage, you´ll get to see people from a new perspective: we are all the same surrounded by different circumstances but in a basic and primal level we are the same. And what we have in common is the desire to have a happy life (whether that means having a ferrari for one of your white privilege man or being bought a new pair of shoes instead of the old and dirty ones you get last time if you are a poor kid in nepal) and see your beloved ones safe and happy enjoying their lives.
i won´t accept from you anymore giving me the "we suffer too" answer... you can´t see a four year old girl being mutilated and stay put cause its their culture.... because you should have a few absolute and firm values in that head that are unbreakable and untouchable no matter what

Es mas que eso Momoends

White privilege es una tema muy importante en los discursos de la cultura estadounidense de hoy dia. Es la idea que tener el piel blanco (con raices europeas) se da muchas ventajas. No es solamente de sueldo ni educación, con piel colorado tu ideas valen menos y en la calle o una tienda automaticamente estas sospechoso.

Aqui un articulo que se expica bien. (Y agradezco la oportunidad de practicar mi espanol).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2016/01/16/white-privilege-explained/

pues vaya jilipollez (disculpa mi vocabulario) anyway i´ll speak english ... i needed a break! jjajjajajja

well it kind of reminds me how we see men in comparison to women
hahahaha

I get that Momoends.... there is male privilege too. But it isn't a parallel.

As we have discussed there are ways that women are privileged compared to men (in the US but that is the the place where I have the most experience). There is no way that Black people are privileged compared to White people.

And Race is more of a factor than gender (by far). Except for the one case of sexual assault, there is no way that White women don't have it better than Black men.

- White women earn significantly more than Black men.
- Black men are more likely to be stopped and frisked by the police than White women for no reason.
- Black men are more likely to be a victim of a violent crime, and more likely to be murdered.
- Black men are more likely to be assaulted by a stranger.
- Black men receive significantly higher prison sentences than White women convicted of the exact same crime.
- Black men are more likely to live in poverty than White women.
- White women receive better health care and have a longer life expectancy.
- A black boy in elementary school is far more likely to be suspended from school than his white girl peers, and black boys are more likely to be held back in school.
- White girls are far more likely to be invited to advanced classes in math and science than Black boys. White girls are given far more opportunities to access technology than Black boys.

- And of course, Black men have a hell of a time getting custody of their children.

Feminism sells well because it is essentially about protecting White women. Protecting White women, of course, has been at the core of our culture since before our Civil War (well before the popularity of feminism in the US).

When the focus is so much on White Women, the much more serious issues involving racism get swept under the rug. After all, our society has never valued Black men.

As long as the focus is on White people... as a society we can tolerate that.

there you go again....

i don´t know what being black means on your society... i have therefore nothing to say against anything you say about it... i´m sorry about somebody having to endure discrimination just because the color of their skin... not fair and totally nonsense

I know several people who are originally from Spain. We have a local group here for Spanish speakers (which is great for me to practice the language).

There is an interesting discussion about racism in Spain. Some Spanish ex-pats claim that race isn't an issue in Spain. Others disagree. I have never been to Spain and my only understanding of the culture is from the people to whom I have spoken. One of my friends claims that the real issue in Spain is class, not race (although the discrimination is the same). This argument doesn't really make sense to me as an American.

I would be interested to hear your opinion. It seems like there are a variety of opinions in Spain (the same as there are in any country).

(Of course my principal of judging other cultures based on an understanding of their cultural context extends to Spain as well. Although the US and Spain are cousin cultures... we are both influenced by Western European history and values... there are some differences.)

the first thing you should know is that several cultures with different background, language and heritage coexist and are considered as one under the name of España. That means you´ll get used soon to ask whereabouts in Spain are you from when meeting an spaniard
That said, i have never witnessed nor heard in my social encounters till these day a black person being discriminated by their color... racism exists here in Spain, sure! but it´s not something accepted nor common among medium class population.
Being a country of the old continent means there are still descendants of the former existing dukes, kings, blue bloods, ... and so on, among the actual population. Those are still quite rich and treated with a deep respect and they are quite above the average citizen all senses. They with the noble families, descendants of important former politicians and military big bosses form the highest class in the spanish society, linked closely to the catholic church big bosses that are powerful and rich enough to blackmail our governments.
Those don´t interact with the medium class people, who used to be quite numerous and have a high quality level of living, who don´t interact with the lowest class formed by families who have low income due to a lack of education, conflicted pasts or a tragedy that affected strongly on their financial founds
The fact is: we of course interact with each other on daily basis cause those boundaries separating classes are not there anymore but are still present on our minds

My irritation is around marriage. As a miss I might want to marry and keep my own name. If so I would still be required to change all documents and bills as my title would still change. Males are rearly required to change their documents apart from a change of address. I think miss and Mrs is well overdue for an overhaul. It is very disrespectful in today's world of equality.

This is factually incorrect. I know many married couples where each person just kept their own last name. I know a couple couples [heh] that chose a different third name (they both changed it).

No woman is required to change anything (any more than a man is).

In what country do you live?

Maybe that's true in some part of the world, but not in the US at least.

Also, I think it's very disrepectful to call someone Doctor in todays world of equality.
If you argue the title Dr was earned, well, what do the call the person who graduated in last place in medical school?

This doesn't make any sense.

The person who graduated in last place in medical is a person who graduated from medical school. That person spent 12 years of her life studying, taking exams, working long nights. They did the hard work than the people who didn't graduate from medical school didn't do. This includes you and me.

That is why they are doctors and we are not. They absolutely earned it. I have no problem calling anyone who graduated from medical school "doctor".