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O'Reilly vs. Moore

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 07:29 am
Anyone want to quibble with the facts in Moore's documentary?

http://www.michaelmoore.com/warroom/f911notes/
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 07:32 am
I agree that the question of asking if you would send your own children to war is a bit unfair. No matter if the reason was a good one, who would be comfortable saying yes? Parents accept that their children sometimes have to be in wars, but I doubt there is hardly a parent out there that goes into their son or daughter's room and say, "hey, there is a war going on, why don't you go and help out the effort."

I also agree that those in congress (including kerry and edwards) should have looked deeper and been more skeptical about agreeing to go war. However, what are we going to do, get rid of the whole bunch?

On average, Kerry and Edwards is still better than Bush and Bush should not have believed CIA director when he said, "it was a slam dunk."

Besides, I think people all over are getting that quote mixed up. I think that quote was George Tenat responding to Bush that it was a "slam dunk" that "Joe public" will believe that we need to go war not that it was a "slam dunk" that we had enough evidence to go war. After all, the question that led up to Geroge Tenats response was about the public's reaction to the evidence presented after George Bush raised doubts that it would be enough to convince them.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 07:34 am
revel wrote:
I agree that the question of asking if you would send your own children to war is a bit unfair. No matter if the reason was a good one, who would be comfortable saying yes? Parents accept that their children sometimes have to be in wars, but I doubt there is hardly a parent out there that goes into their son or daughter's room and say, "hey, there is a war going on, why don't you go and help out the effort." Smile Good one Revel!

I also agree that those in congress (including kerry and edwards) should have looked deeper and been more skeptical about agreeing to go war. However, what are we going to do, get rid of the whole bunch?

On average, Kerry and Edwards is still better than Bush and Bush should not have believed CIA director when he said, "it was a slam dunk."

Besides, I think people all over are getting that quote mixed up. I think that quote was George Tenat responding to Bush that it was a "slam dunk" that "Joe public" will believe that we need to go war not that it was a "slam dunk" that we had enough evidence to go war. After all, the question that led up to Geroge Tenats response was about the public's reaction to the evidence presented after George Bush raised doubts that it would be enough to convince them.


Ta Da! Finally someone puts it in perspective! Nice job!
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:19 am
I don't know any effective CEO in a company who would first look at a weak presentation and then summarily accept it because he was told it was a slam dunk. Sure way to go bankrupt.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 09:08 am
A link for enlightenment:

http://vassa.net/hawking.htm
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 10:35 am
Quote:
Lightwizard, the reason I included the expression "within the context of the discussion" was because Moore did not challenge O'reilly's statement that Bush thought he was making a true statement. In no way can that be categorized as a lie. A child who answers that two plus two is five is not a liar.


It's a lie if Bush knew the intel wasn't very good. The problem is, it's hard to prove that. The admin was very savvy with it's comments while making the case for Iraq - they carefully avoided making definate statements that couldn't be blamed on someone else. They accomplished this by structuring their rhetoric to convince people of the case for war based more on emotional content, conflation, and fear-mongering than on logic and sound reason.

That's the reason that many of us didn't believe Iraq had WMD BEFORE we went to war there. If you are well versed in the tactics of debate and political speeches, it is not difficult to see how hollow his arguments were. If you are not well versed, he delivers a very powerful emotional message.

Much to my chagrin, most Americans are not what you would call 'well-versed' in debate or politics, and the machine keeps right on working....

Cycloptichorn
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 12:28 pm
suzy thanks
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 04:07 pm
I think O'Reilly choked which is very uncharacteristic of him.

To the question of "Would you send your son to die in Iraq?", any other time I think O'Reilly would have fired back something like, "Hell no, I wouldn't send any man's son to die, let alone mine. But I would and do salute and support and back up and thank all those who volunteer to go fight for their country and feel great pride that we have brave men and women willing to do that."

To the question of intelligence, any other time he would have been quicker on his feet to the intelligence question too. He should have said, "The President acted on the best information available to him. And if the intelligence was faulty because agencies weren't talking to each other, that was because a roadblock to communication was thrown up in the previous administration. The intent was not to hamper intelligence efforts, but it had that effect.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 05:22 pm
I am often shocked and then begin laughing at Moore's chutzpah in framing questions to entrap and bait his subjects. Hey, if they aren't smart enough to have a comeback, perhaps they shouldn't be where they are. I was feeling empathy even towards Heston who should have checked out who was asking for interviews. I also forgot that he hadn't announced anything about his Alzheimers and that could have been why he stuttered and faltered. Not that he could really come up with any smart and provocative answer when he was a full mental capability.

If O'Reilly didn't know what was coming, he didn't do his homework.
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El Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 05:37 am
You have to do homework to answer if you would send your kid to Iraq?
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El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Aug, 2004 05:44 am
Stupid thing keeps logging me in with an underscore lol
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 09:19 am
Would You Sacrifice Your Son for Fallujah?

In an interesting exchange at the Democratic convention, Michael Moore asked Bill O'Reilly whether he would sacrifice his son to capture Fallujah. The question caught my attention because our youngest son had just returned from discussing post-college options with a Marine recruiter.

This type of question is designed to be difficult to answer -- and judging from O'Reilly's response, it was. This is because it is a rhetorical device and not a substantial question at all. This is true in four aspects.

First, it has the high standard of "sacrifice." No normal parent is prepared to sacrifice his child for any reason or objective, including military objectives. The same could be said of any desirable objective. Would you, for example, sacrifice your child to expand health care to the uninsured? Or even, in the customary example, to save the life of another of one's own children? It is hard to imagine any objective for which one would sacrifice one's child.

The question is more akin to a philosophy class exercise than a real-world moral dilemma. Service in the armed forces can be risky, but it is not tantamount to a death sentence. Were service in the armed forces a certain route to the ultimate sacrifice of one's life, the armed forces would be small indeed. Maybe that is Michael Moore's goal.

Second, the question is addressed to the wrong person. Many members of the armed forces have at least one living parent. All, however, are adult men and women in their own right. And it is they, not their parents, who choose to serve in the armed forces. The question that parents face is not whether to sacrifice their children but whether to support their children in the broad and often risky activities they must perform when they enter military service.

Third, the objective of Fallujah's pacification is too narrowly stated. Would anyone enlist for the specific purpose of keeping supply convoys moving into Baghdad? Or to open a road to a dusty town? Or to pacify a town or the occupants of a house? Or to be killed by friendly fire? Many young Americans have lost their lives in just such ways. But these are tasks incidental to the larger purpose of military service: protecting the interests of the United States.

If Saddam Hussein's tyranny is replaced by a decent government; if that new government becomes a working partner in changing the Middle East; and if this helps to prevent another major act of terrorism against the United States, are these not purposes that justify not blind "sacrifice" but at least a measure of personal risk? True, the purposes of U.S. foreign policy can surely be described far too grandly; but one can surely demean them beyond recognition as well.

Finally, the question ignores the issue of consequences. We all know that the full consequences of our decisions are impossible to predict. So are the consequences of our indecisions. If there are risks and sacrifices entailed by action, there are also risks and sacrifices entailed by inaction. Was it not precisely the burden of the Sept. 11 commission to consider why no one asked young Americans to risk their lives in a serious mission to kill Osama bin Laden before Sept. 11, 2001?

Michael Moore suggests as much when he allows that preemptive action to eliminate Adolf Hitler before World War II would have been justified. In retrospect, perhaps this case is easy enough. But would he have thought so in the 1930s? Would he not have joined the chorus of voices on both sides of the Atlantic whose refrain was that Hitler was no threat at all, and definitely not an "imminent" threat?

We live in a world of occasional hard choices. Young adults must decide whether they will serve in the armed forces. Parents must decide to accept and support those choices. And policymakers must make their best, if imperfect, judgments about when to send young men and women into harm's way. In none of these choices does Michael Moore's question offer the slightest guidance.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2004 10:58 am
Quote:
We live in a world of occasional hard choices. Young adults must decide whether they will serve in the armed forces. Parents must decide to accept and support those choices. And policymakers must make their best, if imperfect, judgments about when to send young men and women into harm's way. In none of these choices does Michael Moore's question offer the slightest guidance.


I don't agree. I think that in this country very few people understand what war really means. Even with embedded reporters feeding live from battles, all they see are smoke and tanks. When determining whether a war is worth fighting, it seems apropriate to frame it in the context of "is it worth the loss of human life"? For some people, it is a lot easier to conclude that it is worth the loss of life as long as the life lost is not their own or someone's close to them.

I am mindful of Michael Moore's acknowledged bias but I believe his film does try to frame the magnitude of the true cost of this war in a way that most americans can comprehend. Now, with some notable public figures cheerleading for war with Iran I think it is a prudent question to ask. If a war is truly worthy of being of fought then it is worth the lives of our best and brightest. This war in Iraq, in my opinion, is not worth one hair from my child's head.
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:35 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Quote:
We live in a world of occasional hard choices. Young adults must decide whether they will serve in the armed forces. Parents must decide to accept and support those choices. And policymakers must make their best, if imperfect, judgments about when to send young men and women into harm's way. In none of these choices does Michael Moore's question offer the slightest guidance.


I don't agree. I think that in this country very few people understand what war really means. Even with embedded reporters feeding live from battles, all they see are smoke and tanks. When determining whether a war is worth fighting, it seems apropriate to frame it in the context of "is it worth the loss of human life"? For some people, it is a lot easier to conclude that it is worth the loss of life as long as the life lost is not their own or someone's close to them.

I am mindful of Michael Moore's acknowledged bias but I believe his film does try to frame the magnitude of the true cost of this war in a way that most americans can comprehend. Now, with some notable public figures cheerleading for war with Iran I think it is a prudent question to ask. If a war is truly worthy of being of fought then it is worth the lives of our best and brightest. This war in Iraq, in my opinion, is not worth one hair from my child's head.
That is why you make the choice that I did. I didn't join the Army till after the war in Iraq had started. I was asked by many why I did this and the only response I can make is this: I am putting my money where my mouth is! I have been in full support of this war from its beginnings and will support after it is said and done.

Myself as a solider and kind of upset at people like Moore for the simple fact that it isn't children going into war but grown adult people who have made a choice. There was always this question in Basic from the DS's: "Is there anyone here that was forced to come?" The answer was always no because we have a complete volunteer military. There is no one in the service that was drafted. Sure there could still be people who were drafted back in the day but they have chosen to stay even after their first time was up.

I am insulted by the fact that people like Moore refer to us as children. It implies that we don't have a choice and are only doing what we are told to. No one makes you join the Army it is a choice. I have chosen to give my life in defense of people I don't know because it is the right thing to do. I do this now in hope that my children won't have to 20 years from now. If for some reason oldest does chose to enter the military I won't be sad, I will be happy to support him, in fact I should still be in at that point and I would serve with my child in pride and honor. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:41 pm
Thank you for your service Baldimo. It's people like you who give me hope we aren't going to hell in a handbasket.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 02:55 pm
Quote:
That is why you make the choice that I did. I didn't join the Army till after the war in Iraq had started. I was asked by many why I did this and the only response I can make is this: I am putting my money where my mouth is! I have been in full support of this war from its beginnings and will support after it is said and done.


Well, I am always impressed by someone who puts there money (and their life) where their mouth is. I disagree with you about the war, but I admire your conviction and willingness to serve.

Quote:
I am insulted by the fact that people like Moore refer to us as children. It implies that we don't have a choice and are only doing what we are told to. No one makes you join the Army it is a choice. I have chosen to give my life in defense of people I don't know because it is the right thing to do. I do this now in hope that my children won't have to 20 years from now. If for some reason oldest does chose to enter the military I won't be sad, I will be happy to support him, in fact I should still be in at that point and I would serve with my child in pride and honor. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.


Well, I don't think of soldiers as children. But when I think of whether or not we should go to war I think of the future of my children and it's not what I want for them. I want them to live peaceful and prosperous lives full of happiness. I obviously can't decide for them once they are of age to make that decision, but I sure would like it if the criteria bar for when we go to war were set just a little bit higher.
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angie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 04:07 pm
Bush may have had misinformation given to him by some, but he also had others telling him that Iraq was not responsible for 911, and that our immediate attention ought to be focused upon al Quaeda in Afghanistan. At the very least, these opposing viewpoints ought to have generated "reasonable doubt" as to the immediate necessity for invading Iraq. Unless, of course, invading Iraq was always the real goal, and 911 just happened to provide an unforseen and convenient excuse.
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 04:09 pm
I would say that removing Saddam was always a good idea, we finally got someone in office that was willing to go against the business interests of France, Germany and Russian to do it. I was kind of hoping this would happen. Saddam sat to long with to many resolutions to stay in power.
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rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 08:40 pm
Whats this garbage about France, Germany and Russia. Ronald Regan and Bush senior are the ones who put Saddum in power and supplied him with his weapons. Some people have very short memories.
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Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Aug, 2004 09:21 pm
Regan and Bush didn't put Saddam in power, he took power long before they were in office. Who's the one with the short memory, because Bush Sr. attacked Saddam in 90. We helped Saddam in his war against Iran but we didn't put him in power. He did that on his own in the late 70's.

France, Germany and Russia were his biggest supports during the 90's and had deals with him for when the sanctions ended. They were all going to make billions off of Iraqi oil. Why do you think they were against the invasion. In fact we are going to be seeing more of this when the Oil for Food scandle is fully uncovered. I bet France and Germany were heavly involved in said scandle.
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