2
   

Is affirmative action REALLY fair?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jul, 2004 09:34 pm
In that case, there must be no private clubs of any kind, because there is a substantial material (as in financial) discrimination in access to power through private and personal connection. There can be no fraternal organizations, because these are also avenues to transact business to the potential detriment of everyone not eligible. Absolutely all public business would have to be subject to the most rigorous "sunshine laws" and meetings such as Scalia on Cheney's fishing expedition would be totally unacceptable.

Much of what affirmative action seeks to remedy is the accumulation of the special advantages conferred by personal connection. It isn't simply that women are raising a stink about private men's clubs because they are "strident," or trying simply to make a point. Such venues assure that business can be transacted by a sequestered, privileged group. School meal programs seek to redress the disadvantages of poor nutrition; ADC, Medicaid and Food Stamps are intended to provide for the same and similar wants. Simply to be born into a white middle class town or neighborhood, and to never question that one will attend university, puts many children at a distinct advantage. "Standard English" will not be a study, but a natural acquisition; "manners" and social decorum are likely to be inculcated in the home; personal contacts of great value lie all around, and participation in many types of organizations common to white middle class life confer advantages as well.

In his speech, Al Sharpton made a point about a poor kid from a broken home in a slum rising so far as to have contended for the nomination for President. This is a signal accomplishment--for someone from his background. With the right background, however, and the right connections, such a result is far less remarkable. Affirmative Action is predicated not simply on how the candidates stack up when they hit the door of the Admissions office, or the Human Resources department--and they about more than rectifying the effects of generations or even centuries of marginalization or oppression. They are also about addressing the inequities inherent in the special access which members of the white middle class enjoy simply by birth.

Talking about a "level playing field" is much like talking about a "free market economy." Neither has ever existed. The playing field of the white middle class may be described as level, but it's up at least one, and in many cases, several flights from the playing fields of the poor.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:32 am
au1929 wrote:
Joe.
Quote:
What makes race so special?


Indeed what makes race so special when all other factors are equal.

Well now, au1929, it wouldn't be quite fair for me to answer your question when you have failed on two occasions to answer my question, would it?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:46 am
joefromchicago
My answer IMO race should not be special. And indeed the use of the race card is divisive and compounds ill feeling between the races. Anything but race. Does that answers your question?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:47 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Private is private. I believe in personal freedoms, even to be prejudice if one chooses, even if I don't like that behavior myself. I don't like people's choices of religion either, but they have the right to believe what they want.

Well, there are significant problems with that position, but we need not go into them. I'll accept that your major objection is with governmentally imposed affirmative action.

rosborne979 wrote:
I appologize if I'm ill informed on this. It was my understanding that these were common results from AA. Can you provide more detailed documentation which supports your understanding of the definitions of AA?

Follow the links here.

rosborne979 wrote:
Maybe my understanding of AA is not accurate. I thought that quotas and AA were entwined to the point of merger.

Your misunderstanding is commonplace: that's what most people think.

rosborne979 wrote:
Maybe you can give me your definition of AA. And then maybe we can get an "official" definition of AA from the law somewhere. Are you sure that your view of AA is what is actually in play?

There is no "official" definition of affirmative action that I know of. In Grutter v. Bollinger, Justice O'Connor described the Univ. of Michigan Law School affirmative action policy in these terms:
    The policy aspires to "achieve that diversity which has the potential to enrich everyone's education and thus make a law school class stronger than the sum of its parts." The policy does not restrict the types of diversity contributions eligible for "substantial weight" in the admissions process, but instead recognizes "many possible bases for diversity admissions." The policy does, however, reaffirm the Law School's longstanding commitment to "one particular type of diversity," that is, "racial and ethnic diversity with special reference to the inclusion of students from groups which have been historically discriminated against, like African-Americans, Hispanics and Native Americans, who without this commitment might not be represented in our student body in meaningful numbers." By enrolling a " 'critical mass' of [underrepresented] minority students," the Law School seeks to "ensur[e] their ability to make unique contributions to the character of the Law School."
The supreme court found that this type of affirmative action policy was constitutional.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:50 am
au1929 wrote:
joefromchicago
My answer IMO race should not be special. And indeed the use of the race card is divisive and compounds ill feeling between the races. Anything but race. .

By singling out race as the one factor that cannot be considered, you have automatically made race special. You just don't have an explanation for it.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 09:03 am
au1929 wrote:

[
Quote:
QUOTE]My answer IMO race should not be special. And indeed the use of the race card is divisive and compounds ill feeling between the races. Anything but race. .


Joe wrote
Quote:
By singling out race as the one factor that cannot be considered, you have automatically made race special. You just don't have an explanation for it.


That is your opinion? Race should note enter into or be a deciding factor when all things are equal. Something I believe to be highly unlikely if not impossible.

In fact race should no more be considered than height,weight or hair color
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 09:48 am
joefromchicago wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Maybe you can give me your definition of AA. And then maybe we can get an "official" definition of AA from the law somewhere. Are you sure that your view of AA is what is actually in play?

There is no "official" definition of affirmative action that I know of.


Maybe this is the problem.

joefromchicago wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
I appologize if I'm ill informed on this. It was my understanding that these were common results from AA. Can you provide more detailed documentation which supports your understanding of the definitions of AA?

Follow the links here.


I read them. None of them contain a definition of AA, and I find the logic of some of the "myths" flawed.

joefromchicago wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Maybe my understanding of AA is not accurate. I thought that quotas and AA were entwined to the point of merger.

Your misunderstanding is commonplace: that's what most people think.


If, as you've said, the definition of AA is so vague, how can you be so sure that your own understanding of how it is being implemented is so accurate?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 09:58 am
Just speaking from reading about this issue, it seems to me that each school's committee reponsible for recruitment uses their own subjective criteria in trying to accomplish diversity in their studentbody and teaching staff. I don't think there is any 'norm' that one can put your finger on. Some schools are more successful than others in recruiting minorities. It may be the result of the applicant pool rather than the criteria being used by the committee. I remember a few years ago when the applicant pool at UC Berkeley was unusually low, so the first year minority student enrollment was low. It's not an easy issue to address.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:15 pm
Setanta wrote:
In that case, there must be no private clubs of any kind, because there is a substantial material (as in financial) discrimination in access to power through private and personal connection. There can be no fraternal organizations, because these are also avenues to transact business to the potential detriment of everyone not eligible. Absolutely all public business would have to be subject to the most rigorous "sunshine laws" and meetings such as Scalia on Cheney's fishing expedition would be totally unacceptable.

Much of what affirmative action seeks to remedy is the accumulation of the special advantages conferred by personal connection. It isn't simply that women are raising a stink about private men's clubs because they are "strident," or trying simply to make a point. Such venues assure that business can be transacted by a sequestered, privileged group. School meal programs seek to redress the disadvantages of poor nutrition; ADC, Medicaid and Food Stamps are intended to provide for the same and similar wants. Simply to be born into a white middle class town or neighborhood, and to never question that one will attend university, puts many children at a distinct advantage. "Standard English" will not be a study, but a natural acquisition; "manners" and social decorum are likely to be inculcated in the home; personal contacts of great value lie all around, and participation in many types of organizations common to white middle class life confer advantages as well.

In his speech, Al Sharpton made a point about a poor kid from a broken home in a slum rising so far as to have contended for the nomination for President. This is a signal accomplishment--for someone from his background. With the right background, however, and the right connections, such a result is far less remarkable. Affirmative Action is predicated not simply on how the candidates stack up when they hit the door of the Admissions office, or the Human Resources department--and they about more than rectifying the effects of generations or even centuries of marginalization or oppression. They are also about addressing the inequities inherent in the special access which members of the white middle class enjoy simply by birth.

Talking about a "level playing field" is much like talking about a "free market economy." Neither has ever existed. The playing field of the white middle class may be described as level, but it's up at least one, and in many cases, several flights from the playing fields of the poor.


Set, humans discriminate and life is unequal. This is not only part of life, it is necessary to our species and all species on the planet. There is competition and not everyone has the same headstart.

This does not mean that it is the job of our government to try to equalize advantages and disadvantages in everyone's lives. That assumption is socialist and socialism doesn't work for a number of reasons (which I'll go into if you would like.)

The government has to garuntee that ability to pursue happiness - the ability to be hired, the ability to be educated. They do not garuntee hapiness - that you -will- be hired, that you -will- be educated, that you -will- have money. Our governments strength is not in discriminating, but by being constantly equal and offering fair protection to its citizens. The only way for the government to garuntee equal protection under law is for the same laws to apply to all citizens.

If you change the law for different people, no matter how benevolent the cause may seem, you are changing the underlying principles of equal protection under law.

Inequality will happen. It is a part of life. It is not something the government should try to fix. Leave that to groups of people who do not have sole power over the country, such as churches, organizations, and communities. But never to the government.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:47 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Joe, what would you say to the philosopher who asks you, "Brother can you paradigm?"

Get a real job!
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:54 pm
au1929 wrote:
That is your opinion? Race should note enter into or be a deciding factor when all things are equal. Something I believe to be highly unlikely if not impossible.

Why is it so difficult to believe? In college admissions, there are only two objective factors: standardized test scores and high school GPA. After that it's all subjective. So if two students have the same test scores and the same GPA, the decision between them must be made on subjective factors. Who's to say that those subjective factors can't, in the end, equal each other? Are you suggesting that there's always something that distinguishes two candidates who are, in all other respects, equivalent? And if you'd allow a college, in that situation, to consider subjective factors, why can't it consider race?

au1929 wrote:
In fact race should no more be considered than height,weight or hair color

Why not?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 08:54 pm
PS, i hardly need instruction from you on the nature of humanity and society--and in fact, considering what you've written about history and society in the past, i don't think you're very much qualified to comment. Most of that post is sarcastic reaction to a statment by Rosborne about governments eliminating discrimination. I found that to be a hopelessly naive statement precisely because of the millenia-long human practice of creating and maintaining privilege, institutionalizing it, in fact. You go on to provide a didactic statement of what the duties of the government are. I have my own ideas on that, and have little regard for what you have written, and certainly don't need or want a lecture from you about socialist government. I rather suspect i'd get the same sort of ill-informed passage i've read from you when you are bent on displaying your ignorance of any other aspect of history.

Without regard to what the government does, a concept of taking affirmative action to redress the inequities of a system established over centuries arose from the civil rights movement. Without regard to what the government does, the concept of affirmative action is predicated upon an ideal of the extension of equity which would attempt to accomplish that redress of the inequity of privilege and participation in the ascendant group. That those who wish to achieve such a goal would attempt to marshall the power of the government in their effort is not to be wondered at, nor does it in any way suggest socialism, which is a system of economic equity, or the attempt thereat, which only happens to resemble what those who favor affirmative action intend.

I really don't know where to begin to pick apart the silly lecture you've delivered. If you can live in this society, and not see that the government constantly and predictably favors the accumulation of capital and its attendant influence, then i suppose i can see why you would make such a series of hopelessly naive statements about government's purpose. Inequality, far from simply happening, is enshrined in the informal system of purchasing political power in this nation. Spare me your starry-eyed homilies on the purpose of government, it is all too clear that you've made no pragmatic assessment of exactly what it is that government does do. Tax cuts for the wealthy, tax legislation which specifically targets the particular investments of corporations or individuals for exemption, Congressional pork-barrel projects, obscenely bloated an inefficient contracts with military manufacturing firms--these and a host of other examples give the lie to your junior high ideals of just government. Given the choice between government mandated affirmative action in employment and contracts, and the writing of provisions which immunize defense contractors from government suit and the attendant costs, i'll take the affirmative action every time--it means far less, or nothing at all is taken from my pocket to enrich someone else. I wrote about the source of the ideal of affirmative action, you write about the ideal of government. Who is more naive when we consider that you could write such nonsense in all sincerity? From the First Congress to the One Hundred Fourth, the action of government in terms of stark reality has been the publicly transacted sale and purchase of favor and advantage by the privileged. That government might then throw a bone to the historically down-trodden is redolent more of an hypocritical fig-leaf, than of any abuse of justice by a government for which the term is anathema.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 09:15 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
I read them. None of them contain a definition of AA, and I find the logic of some of the "myths" flawed.

Care to expand upon that?

rosborne979 wrote:
If, as you've said, the definition of AA is so vague, how can you be so sure that your own understanding of how it is being implemented is so accurate?

Well, let's be clear: I didn't say that the definition of AA is vague, I said that there is no "official" definition of it. You can look here for a variety of definitions.
0 Replies
 
stuh505
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Jul, 2004 09:56 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
au1929 wrote:
In fact race should no more be considered than height,weight or hair color

Why not?


How about because that's racism?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 07:09 am
joefromchicago wrote:
au1929 wrote:
In fact race should no more be considered than height, weight or hair color

Why not?


For the last time since your questions have taken on a circular theme. After 50 years of privileged treatment of minorities it is time for the minorities to stand on their own feet and not on other peoples backs. In addition as I made mention of before AA was badly defined relative to the criteria required to reap the fruits of the legislation. And last but certainly not least to defeat discrimination by discrimination is IMO wrong. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 08:53 am
stuh505 wrote:
How about because that's racism?

It's easy to throw out the term "racism" as an all-purpose means of demonizing a particular position, but how exactly is affirmative action "racism?" What is so "racist" about giving a position to a qualified minority applicant while rejecting a qualified non-minority applicant? After all, they're both qualified.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 08:54 am
au1929 wrote:
For the last time since your questions have taken on a circular theme. After 50 years of privileged treatment of minorities it is time for the minorities to stand on their own feet and not on other peoples backs. In addition as I made mention of before AA was badly defined relative to the criteria required to reap the fruits of the legislation. And last but certainly not least to defeat discrimination by discrimination is IMO wrong. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Minorities are receiving "privileged treatment?" Really, au1929, it is to laugh.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 09:04 am
Joe
Quote:
Minorities are receiving "privileged treatment?" Really, au1929, it is to laugh.


What do you think AA did. As for it being racism. Are you one of those people that believe it is racism only if directed at a minority. And then only selected minorities.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 09:18 am
Joe said
Quote:
?" What is so "racist" about giving a position to a qualified minority applicant while rejecting a qualified non-minority applicant? After all, they're both qualified.


Because the decision is based on race. I would ask don't you think it is racist to give a position to a less qualified candidate because of his/her race. That is exactly what AA was designed to do and did. That is pure and simple racism. Regardless of the reason AA by definition was and is racist.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Jul, 2004 10:10 am
We talk about GPAs like they are equal in some quantitative way. It isn't.
0 Replies
 
 

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