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Things that make you go hmmmmm...

 
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:30 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think you have it backwards. We don't feel threatened by the speech of the uneducated and unintelligent. We feel exhausted, frustrated, exacerbated.

Cycloptichorn


Yup. Nodding. That's what the situation described makes me feel.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:32 am
I agree. I think the idea stretches much further than just liberalism. But, I think the the author was hinting towards social programs which take money away from everybody and then dictate through the programs parts of peoples lives. A small example is people on food stamps are told what kind and what brands of food to buy... we do not feel that they can make a sound decision when it comes to purchasing their food so we dictate what they can buy. The government holds that power over them because with out it they may not eat.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:35 am
Quote:
I think the idea stretches much further than just liberalism.


Are you trying to say that liberalism is inherently arrogant and elitist?
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jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:38 am
No...I am not trying to start a left vs. right arguement here. I am trying to discuss the idea of the "elite" perhaps feeling threatened by everybody having the same rights that they do. And if they do feel ths way are they trying to take away some of those rights.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:39 am
Ah, all right, I gotcha. I'm ruminating...



(Pretty inflammatory article, though...)
0 Replies
 
Springgrl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:40 am
I can't help feeling like this article had something to say but then gave up and didn't say anything useful at all....



Quote:
Ever wonder why some people hate America so?


>>Why Doesn't the Author tell me the answer to this? The rest of the article is barely tangent to this opening.

Quote:
Nor is such a posture confined to academia. Movie-maker Michael Moore is going around the world saying that the United States is "a crappy country" and its people "stupid" -- while his movie "Fahrenheit 911" is being praised to the skies in the press and among the intelligentsia, as it puts its anti-American message on the screen.


>>Anti-Bush, Anti-Iraq automatically means Anti-American?

Quote:
What is there about America that sets off such venom -- among Americans, of all people? One answer might be to look at the kinds of countries praised, defended, or "understood" by the intelligentsia.

For many years, the Soviet Union was such a country. After too many bitter facts about the Soviet Union came to light over the years to permit its rosy image to continue, much of the intelligentsia simply shifted their allegiance or sympathies to other collectivist countries, such as China, Cuba, or Vietnam in the Communist bloc or India, Tanzania and other collectivist regimes outside it.


>>Smart = Communist? Leftist/Progressive beliefs automatically assume support for communist dictatorships?


Quote:
It means that hundreds of millions of ordinary human beings live their lives as they see fit -- regardless of what their betters think. That is fine, unless you see yourself as one of their betters, as so many intellectuals do.

The more the American vision of individual freedom prevails, the more the vision of the anointed fails. The more ordinary people spend the money they have earned for whatever they want, the less is available to the government as taxes to spend for "the common good" as Hillary Clinton recently put it.


>>This I actually agree with in part. Government should stop spending so much money to interfere in people's private lives. Implying that only the democrats want to interfere in people's lives is a little misleading.


Quote:
Cars and guns are both instruments and symbols of personal independence -- and both are targets of hostility and even hatred by those who are convinced that they can run other people's lives better than those people can run their own lives. All sorts of claims are made against cars and guns, without the slightest interest in checking those claims against readily available facts.


>>Way to go unsubstantiated assumption! Who is against guns and cars? What is their evidence? What is your evidence that the available facts are on your side? Who published this?

Quote:
Countries that impose a collectivist vision from the top down will be forgiven many atrocities, while a country like the United States that lets individuals go their own way will not even be forgiven its successes, much less its shortcomings.

As we celebrate both our country's independence and our individual independence on the Fourth of July, we should never forget that this independence is galling to those who want us to be dependent on them.


>>The one valid assertion made in the article falls flat when the rest is a bunch of unreasoned left baiting. Instead of arguing on the validity of a issue position or idealogy, this article basically says: If you don't agree with me, you are a big commie doo doo head that hates America.
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:41 am
McGentrix wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure I, or anybody I know, would agree that parents alone should raise children. That's not the cultural norm here, or anyplace else. There is an odd group now and again... (I'm thinking of Sawney Bean here...) But more usual is collective raising of children, hence the universal acceptance of Hillary's statement, that it takes a village to raise a child...


I feel as though I need to chime in here. I completely disagree with this statement. It is the parents responsibility to raise their children. I would dare anyone to try to raise my children other than myself or my wife.

Schools are to provide an education, not help raise children. I can't believe that anyone would want someone else to raise their children. This lack of responsibility is what is leading to the weakening of the family unit and the weakening of family morals. People don't want to be responsible for anything anymore and it disgusts me.


Maybe you did a good job raising your children, but how do you feel about people like the couple in Canada(made the news recently) who chained and tied their sons up to keep them out of trouble when they were home? What about other neglectful and abusive parents? What about single parent households? What about parents who choose not to follow society's rules? What is going to protect these children from falling through the cracks? Societal constructs will. Communities need to help these kids and these parents. Without society, children raised in individual homes would be subject to a myriad of rules for conduct and not fit into society at large at the end of their childhood.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 10:47 am
Those people should be sterilized. Obviously not everyone is cut out to be parents, but that doesn't mean that it takes society to raise their children. It takes child services a trip out to the house, a gathering of personal items and a trip to a foster home where better parents can raise those children.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 11:07 am
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm...
jpinMilwaukee wrote:

Ever wonder why some people hate America so?


No, and frankly people who "wonder" why are unlikely to understand why.

Quote:
Note that it is not the downtrodden masses but the pampered Ph.D.s who most vent their spleen at the country that protects and indulges them.


There is no factual basis for this claim. The subsequent anecdotes do not even address this fantastically idiotic claim.

For example, I love America, but think that putting a flag on a car is an advertisement of one's simple mindedness. I don't love the logo.

Quote:
What is there about America that sets off such venom -- among Americans, of all people? One answer might be to look at the kinds of countries praised, defended, or "understood" by the intelligentsia.

For many years, the Soviet Union was such a country. After too many bitter facts about the Soviet Union came to light over the years to permit its rosy image to continue, much of the intelligentsia simply shifted their allegiance or sympathies to other collectivist countries, such as China, Cuba, or Vietnam in the Communist bloc or India, Tanzania and other collectivist regimes outside it.


Again, where is the factual basis for this claim? Anyone can make up things.

Quote:
What is wrong with America, in the eyes of the intelligentsia? The same things that are right with America in the eyes of others.

If one word rings out, and echoes around the world, when America is mentioned, that word is Freedom. But what does freedom mean?


This is a cluelessness that is frustrating to address. jpinMilwaukee, quite frankly you should be embarassed to associate yourself with this brainfart of ratiocination.

The qualms people have with America rarely are sourced in "freedom" at all. This is an intellectually bankrupt mantra and even more so when it segues from application to more restrictive mid-eastern terrorists to squishy American liberals.

Furthermore, the wordplay the author uses can easily be reversed, as the author's distain for "intellectuals" can just as easily be described as a feeling of superiority that the author ascribes to those he excoriates.

When he offers his censure to their behavior he is just as guilty as they of imposing on "freedom". Laughing

This is a cluelessness that indicates that the interlocutor will always merely "wonder" and will not understand. It's exacerbated by the fact that the foolish author equates censure to an affront to freedom while delivering censure himself.
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 11:12 am
McGentrix wrote:
Those people should be sterilized. Obviously not everyone is cut out to be parents, but that doesn't mean that it takes society to raise their children. It takes child services a trip out to the house, a gathering of personal items and a trip to a foster home where better parents can raise those children.


Naturally, you are exaggerating, right?

You seriously can't believe foster care is better for any child than assistance to their bad parents of origin?

Also, think about the "olden days" (I'm assuming you are 40-something at least, like me...) Don't you remember neighbors on your case to keep you in line? Don't you remember rethinking an action because someone in your immediate community would put you in your place if you did what you wished to do? Many of those neighbors in kids lives today are off working. Schools are still set up to be one per neighborhood at the elementary level, one for several neighborhoods at the intermediate level, a slightly larger neighborhood base at the high school level... Schools are peopled by responsible caring adults until 3~5 PM, when parents and others are generally getting off work. They have become the community who keep kids from acting as irresponsibly as they may otherwise like to do. It has always taken a community to raise a child. The people who opted out of that system ended up raising children who didn't follow the same rules as the kids who were raised within a community. I'm sure if you think about it, you knew some kids raised outside the system at one point or other inyour life... Sawny Beane was just the notorious example that first came to mind, but what about the militia families that choose to cut themselves off and homeschool their children?- parents who choose to raise their offspring w/out benefit of school systems and civilization's rules? There are many examples out there...
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 11:17 am
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm...
Craven de Kere wrote:
brainfart of ratiocination.

Laughing

That's a good phrase! Mind if I steal it? Laughing
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 11:30 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
I have to agree with McG on this one. The lack of family structure is slowly eroding away the morals and work ethic in this country. As far as your response on attacking those who criticize... let me criticize to help clarify my point. While I don't mind Bush being Christian (I was raised christian and think it teaches good morals, but have decided since then that any religion that becomes fanatic is dangerous), I think he uses his religious superiority to keep homosexuals from marrying. When it comes down to it he is using it to lessen other people and deny them rights that every other American has. It is not about criticizing nor is it just about college proffessors, it is about the idea of limiting the rights of the common so that the "superior" can still be superior.


You're getting further and further away from the article you wanted to debate in the first place. I still read the article as a rambling brainfart of ratiocination.

The whole article makes about as much sense as this:
Quote:
I think the idea stretches much further than just liberalism. But, I think the the author was hinting towards social programs which take money away from everybody and then dictate through the programs parts of peoples lives. A small example is people on food stamps are told what kind and what brands of food to buy... we do not feel that they can make a sound decision when it comes to purchasing their food so we dictate what they can buy. The government holds that power over them because with out it they may not eat.



You realize that is false, right? Foodstamp participants aren't told what brands or kinds of foods to buy. They can spend their whole allotment on candy bars, if they want to...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 11:32 am
They cannot, however, use the food stamps to purchase tobacco products or alcohol, which i would see as a praiseworthy prohibition.
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 12:03 pm
Princess,

Home schooled children have always been better behaved than public school children, in my experience.

Yes, it would be better to send a child to a foster home then to leave them in a home with unfit parents. Just because a social worker comes to the home doesn't make the home life any better.
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 12:36 pm
Kristie wrote:
Princess,

Home schooled children have always been better behaved than public school children, in my experience.

Yes, it would be better to send a child to a foster home then to leave them in a home with unfit parents. Just because a social worker comes to the home doesn't make the home life any better.


Well, I disagree w/this except in cases where there is extreme abuse inside the family of origin. The big question is who gets to define "unfit parents." The state gets to define things like that, so the village is used by all... If you are advocating using the village to raise the child after a parent fails, why not use a village before so a parent won't fail...

And, I will agree that many children are homeschooled to be responsible citizens, but some are not. The ones who are successful generally have civic minded parents who teach children to follow rules and laws. However, there are children who are raised with disregard for rules, and go unchecked when not made to participate within social constructs. The ones who escape the rules and turn out badly prove my point, that it really does take a village to raise a child.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 12:40 pm
Ok, I think we have an agreement then. It takes a village to raise the children of adults who lack the responsibility of doing it themselves.
0 Replies
 
princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 12:47 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Ok, I think we have an agreement then. It takes a village to raise the children of adults who lack the responsibility of doing it themselves.


I agree. But wonder if you think your parents raised you bereft of influence from your community at large? I am quite absolutely certain that nearly all children are raised with assistance from their communities, assuming they were raised within communities... Parents bear the brunt of the responsibility, but there were always external influences keeping children in check. Either neighbors, church affiliations, schools, police forces, some construct, some community to monitor beyond the bounds of family. Kwim?
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 01:03 pm
Re: Things that make you go hmmmmm...
Craven de Kere wrote:
No, and frankly people who "wonder" why are unlikely to understand why.

For example, I love America, but think that putting a flag on a car is an advertisement of one's simple mindedness. I don't love the logo.

This is a cluelessness that is frustrating to address. jpinMilwaukee, quite frankly you should be embarassed to associate yourself with this brainfart of ratiocination.

This is a cluelessness that indicates that the interlocutor will always merely "wonder" and will not understand. It's exacerbated by the fact that the foolish author equates censure to an affront to freedom while delivering censure himself.


As I stated earlier I have obviously interpreted the article differently then others and have tried to move beyond the article itself. But I must say that your "discussion" of simple-minded people, brain farts, people who wonder not being able to understand and informing me that I should be embarassed was quite a compelling arguement anyway. Thank you for pointing out how much more intellegent you are. You wouldn't happen to work at Berkeley would you?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 01:23 pm
Gee, CdK, do you hate America or what? Rolling Eyes

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jul, 2004 01:30 pm
jpinMilwaukee,

Nope, I am not one of the excoriated intellectual elite, I did not finish high school. I rank with the intellectual silt in America.

But what with the meager education I did aquire I am able to point out to you that you cherry pick simple words out of arguments to imply that they constitute the basis of the arguments, all the while completely avoiding them. You offer no argument and only lame Berkley sarcasm.

That's a transparent ploy. I care not a whit if you feel less intelligent, that's your problem and of little concern to me. But you can sulk about that and still manage to address the arguments I posited. You choose instead to cop out with a sarcastic quip and avoid the arguments themselves.

I'll even make it easy and highlight just one to demonstrate your ability or inability to refute it:

The author of the article equates the censure of certain individuals as an affront to freedom, in an intellectually bankrupt arguemt trying to equate their different opinions to a hatred of freedom.

The author does this while providing censure to these individuals, creating an intellectual hypocrisy wherin he is guilty of the same alledged affront to freedom that he accuses others of.

So now it rests with you to demonstrate the intellectual ability to formulate an actual argument, instead of bristling at the negative opinion I have of the article.

See if you have more than mere sarcasm about Berkley as your only stock and store.

Anyone can make silly insinuations about Berkley. Is that what constitutes a "Hmmm" inducing throught for you? Is that the extent of your intellectual rigour?
0 Replies
 
 

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