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Are all atheists just unspiritual self-absorbed robots?

 
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 03:33 pm
@Leadfoot,
Why thank you for your kind offer!

Leadfoot wrote:
Minchin is obviously a talented guy but also one of contradictions. He starts out by telling you authoritatively and absolutely that there is no meaning to anything.

Tim is not the Messiah, he's just a guy, with opinions. I happen to agree with him on meaning. Ultimately there is no meaning to anything in the long term. But humans are of the short term (both as individuals and as a species).

Leadfoot wrote:
This he repeats several times throughout his talk and recommends the works of some of his favorite people (all atheists of course).


How dare he recommend the work of people he liked the work of.

Shakespeare and Dickens were atheists? Cool.

Leadfoot wrote:
Then in the midst of his 10 tips for living he says to always be examining yourself for biases. (! except for Tim's of course! )


It was actually 9 things he'd learnt from his life. Now you might know better than Tim what he learned from life - but I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt on that one.

Tim actually says 'This is my opinion, at this point in time'. His whole point was that he does take his opinions out the back and beat them with a cricket bat.

Leadfoot wrote:
Also, 'Be a teacher and spread your ideas' (presumably as long as you agree with his premise of meaninglessness).


Actually he says spray your knowledge. And you're arguing on the basis of your presumption, which is kind of masturbatory. Consider the audience he was addressing this to, young 20 something graduates. Having said how lucky they were to even be in the situation they were I think I'm happy for him to encourage them to share their good fortune. At no point does he set down strictures for what they should share.

Leadfoot wrote:
Then he wraps it up by saying not to define yourself by the things you oppose. (again, unless you oppose finding any meaning in life for which opposition is mandatory).

Again you are straw manning - he offered the 'don't define yourself' by what you oppose BECAUSE he found himself doing it and was not convinced it was a good thing. And at no point did he say 'you' can't find meaning in life, only that you won't, and that he is convinced there isn't one, and has not found that lack has prevented him from having an engaging life, particularly if you define yourself by what you love.

Leadfoot wrote:
Sorry Tim, I'm not buying.


And this is the keystone to ennuically obvious conclusion you came to.

He isn't selling anything. He's telling you his opinion, at this point in time. With some funny jokes thrown in. It's advice with a decidedly jocular, quasi-intellectual spin. Take it or leave it. He clearly had thought about a lot of this stuff a lot more than you thought about your dismissal of it.

He never dictates what what your opinions should be, what you have to believe, or how he will punish you if you don't. BECAUSE IF HE DID HE WOULD BE A ******* RELIGION.
Amoh5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 11:23 pm
I wasn't at all offended by any of Tim's ideas. I'm a Christian, and with Leadfoot's response, that's what I mean not all theists or Christians think alike. I do frown at what my Christian brothers and sisters have to say sometimes, rather strange and weird I would say . I do understand my atheist brothers and sisters. Why? Because I used to be an atheist. I've only been a Christian for about 10yrs. I know atheists like to humor the frustrations and imperfections of life. And theres nothing wrong with that if no one is being individually abused. But I stated that Tim is a master of his own mind because he hasn't lost his sense of compassion toward his fellow human being. I lost that part of me when I was an atheist, maybe I'd lost my sense of humor or life was just getting too tough. I couldn't trust many people and thought they were phoney. But I regained that sense back when I became a Christian. I think when we lose our sense of value towards human life we lose a sense of ourselves and the real world.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 12:55 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
Tim is not the Messiah, he's just a guy, with opinions. I happen to agree with him on meaning. Ultimately there is no meaning to anything in the long term. But humans are of the short term (both as individuals and as a species).
The whole question revolves around his position on 'meaning' which we all know is just another way of saying 'there is no God'. Tim implied that his opinions are subject to change but his rhetoric left no room for doubt on the question of 'meaning'. That was clearly non negotiable in his presentation as was the implication that you were in denial if you disagreed. He put it in the same category as 'climate change denial'.

The rest of what he said was fine, live well and treat others humanely. If he actually lives that way that's great. One of his heroes (Dickens) wrote about treating people that way but in real life treated his own family abominably according to what I've heard.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 12:58 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
which we all know is just another way of saying 'there is no God'


I've noticed that you're pretty confident about speaking for others. You might encounter less resistance if you assume less about what others think. Just a tip.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:03 am
@Amoh5,
Quote:
I wasn't at all offended by any of Tim's ideas. I'm a Christian, and with Leadfoot's response, that's what I mean not all theists or Christians think alike.
I wasn't 'offended' either, but to endorse the absolute of life's meaninglessness is a sell out for anyone claiming to believe in God. Tim wrapped up his atheism in a pretty bow of humanitarianism and he is free to do that but I am equally free to 'not buy it'. And yes, he was clearly selling atheism.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:07 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"which we all know is just another way of saying 'there is no God'"


I've noticed that you're pretty confident about speaking for others. You might encounter less resistance if you assume less about what others think. Just a tip.

Bullshit. Your charge is empty unless you can give a credible alternative meaning.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:11 am
@Leadfoot,
No, your claim is void unless you can prove that "we all know" what you claim we all know. You made the claim, the burden is on you to support it.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:17 am
@FBM,
Quote:
No, your claim is void unless you can prove that "we all know" what you claim we all know. You made the claim, the burden is on you to support it.
Ah, so your defense is ignorance? Even I don't believe that. You are just denying what you know to be true.

Is there someone somewhere that really would not understand what Tim meant by life having no meaning? Possibly, but not anyone capable of reading this thread which is who I meant by 'we' in that statement.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:22 am
@Leadfoot,
You made the claim, now prove that we all know what you claim that we all know. Better yet, how about just speaking for yourself, instead. I don't need anyone else to tell me how I interpret what I see and hear.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:35 am
@FBM,
So you won't tell me how you interpreted it?

If I accepted your approach that I can never assume anything about how the reader will interpret anything, then all communication is futile. But I don't.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 01:38 am
@Leadfoot,
How I interpreted it doesn't matter. I didn't make the claim that everyone else interpreted it the same way I did. You made that claim, now you can't back it up.
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 02:59 am
@Amoh5,
thanks for sharing that. I hope you wont take offense to me chiding about your comment generalising about how atheists 'like to humor the frustrations and imperfections of life' because a) atheism is incredibly individual, because it doesn't share a belief system, and b) plenty of theists take the same small joy.

I'm glad you found a way to reconnect with humanity. But don't expect anyone else to use, or need, the same path.
najmelliw
 
  3  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 03:16 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

The whole question revolves around his position on 'meaning' which we all know is just another way of saying 'there is no God'.


Some people want their name to reverberate through the ages. If they fail to do so in their lifetime, their life would have no meaning. Some people just want to fall in love, get married, and have a baby. If they fail to do so, their life might have no meaning. Some people might belief their life is just a testing grounds for a god somewhere, a being who will judge them on the quality of their life. If that judgment is missing, or the judgment is based on something entirely different and seemingly random(You'll go to heaven if you bashed your head against an open cupboard at least fifty times in your lifetime), and yes, yes, EVEN IF THERE IS NO GOD, their life won't have a meaning.

FBM is right in calling you out on that claim.

And if you want to know how I happen to interpret hingehead's statement myself? Well, in my opinion, humanity is just another species in a long, long list of species that has appeared and disappeared on this planet. In the end, we are likely to disappear as well, and make place for other creatures. In which case, all our achievements are pretty much null and void. And that doesn't factor in the existence of a God or not at all.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 04:06 am
This issue of meaning in life also ignores that life is its own justification. I don't need to do anything to validate my life by giving it meaning through some arbitrary comparison.
0 Replies
 
Amoh5
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 04:17 am
@Leadfoot,
I understand what you are saying Leadfoot that Tim has obvious expressions of an atheist. But I'm familiar with the atheist perception. They sometimes tend to humor the great unknowns, deep and meaningful sentiments, imperfections, and trauma etc etc. In other words don't worry about these sorts of things, be carefree and don't take these things too seriously, just get on with what you are doing to improve your quality of life. Thats how they cope with life's complications. It might seem shallow and meaningless but I don't hold that against them. The only time I would hold anything against them or anybody else for that matter, is inciting harm or abuse towards people. I think Tim is a very decent and intelligent human being. I don't think you have to be a Christian or a theist in order to be a good person.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 04:57 am
@Amoh5,
Amoh5 wrote:
It might seem shallow and meaningless but I don't hold that against them.


Oh well, aren't you magnanimous! Other people don't share your bronze age superstition about a magic sky daddy, and you're not going to hold that against them--even though it makes them shallow and their lives meaningless. This is exactly why so many people in the world don't want to see the religious nut bags in charge of society.
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 05:40 am
@hingehead,
Like I said you don't have to be a Christian or a theist to be a good person. There are atheists who are more decent than Christians and vice-versa. But the point is, we all have our own ways of coping with life's frustrations and imperfections. As long as we are not inciting harm or abuse towards people, thats awesome. I'm not a fundamentalist, extremist or a bible literalist Christian. I'm a bible moralist Christian actually. I don't claim perfection over any other Christian or human being. I don't have any hang-ups about science or evolution. I don't really like to call my views as a Christian a belief, or a religion, because it's contradictary to my perception that I know I am Christian, I'm not guessing and I have proof of my reasons to be a Christian, otherwise I would not want to be a Christian if there was no proof of its feasibility. Sorry for rambling. But to cut a long story short, it gets me out of bed to face the day and its challenges.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 06:11 am
@najmelliw,
Quote:
And if you want to know how I happen to interpret hingehead's statement myself?
There were too many contradictions and misconceptions in your post to respond to so I'll just point out this one. The issue is Mitchen's talk, not what Hingehead stated (which had nothing to do with evolution of species).

Maybe the Dutch/English language barrier is our problem?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 06:27 am
@Amoh5,
Quote:
The only time I would hold anything against them or anybody else for that matter, is inciting harm or abuse towards people. I think Tim is a very decent and intelligent human being. I don't think you have to be a Christian or a theist in order to be a good person.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone involved in this conversation wants or intends to incite harm to anyone. But the premise that 'life has no meaning' has been used to justify the mass murders of millions of people. I'm not sure whether Mao or Stalin holds the record but they are not alone.

If individual lives have no meaning then you can legitimately justify cleansing the population of what you consider 'undesirables' which can be anything from 'witches' in Salem to Christians in Iraq. If you can rid society of 'all it's ills' as FBM called them by getting rid of some meaningless lives, why wouldn't you?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 06:31 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Oh well, aren't you magnanimous! Other people don't share your bronze age superstition about a magic sky daddy, and you're not going to hold that against them--even though it makes them shallow and their lives meaningless.
But that nice, kind, brilliant guy Tim Minchin just said they were meaningless.

I'm just say'n...
 

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