Non-citizen voting.

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From the Washington Post:

Quote:

San Francisco, CA, Jun. 21 (UPI) -- A plan is being considered that allow non-citizens, including illegal immigrants, to vote in San Francisco school board elections.

The San Jose Mercury News said Monday the proposed November ballot measure was aimed at getting more parents involved in their children's education by waiving California's requirement that voters be U.S. citizens.

San Francisco has long been a home to a large Asian immigrant community as well as growing numbers of Latinos. Only those non-citizens with children in public school would be allowed to vote, and only in school board elections.

The Mercury said a similar proposal that would have allowed immigrants to vote in all municipal elections was rejected in 1996 by a judge who ruled the move would require an amendment to the state constitution.

If passed, the measure would be the first in California, although similar laws have been enacted in New York, Chicago and Maryland.

Is this a good idea? I know parents should have a say with what goes on in their schools but how can someone that is not a citizen vote? It is stated in most State Constitutions and even the Federal Constitutions that you must be a citizen to vote. How is San Francisco going to determine that non-citizens are only going to vote in school board elections seeing as how most if not all school board elections take place during city, state and federal elections?

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With a different ballot? How do they do it in New York, Chicago, and Maryland? (And why are there two states and one city in that list?)

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patiodog wrote:

With a different ballot? How do they do it in New York, Chicago, and Maryland? (And why are there two states and one city in that list?)

Should this be allowed even though they are not citizens? Isn't it a right of a citizen to vote? How do you ensure only legal immergrants are allowed to and that illegal citizens who are not supposed to be here do not vote?

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I don't know. Green card/ID card? It's not my measure. I don't really care one way or the other. I'm just saying the logistics of the situation have likely been worked out if it's been enacted elsewhere.

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Anyone that pays taxes should be allowed to vote. I am a citizen, but my husband is a resident alien. I find it incredibly unfair that he must pay taxes and does not receive the right the right to vote. So much for "No taxation without representation".

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winter.mist wrote:

Anyone that pays taxes should be allowed to vote. I am a citizen, but my husband is a resident alien. I find it incredibly unfair that he must pay taxes and does not receive the right the right to vote. So much for "No taxation without representation".

Has your husband applied to become a citizen? If he has then he would have the right to vote. If he wants to keep his other countries citizenship then it has become his vault that he cannot vote. It states in the constitution that only citizens are allowed to vote in elections.

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Re: Non-citizen voting.

Baldimo wrote:

It is stated in most State Constitutions and even the Federal Constitutions that you must be a citizen to vote.

Do you have an example of one? I've read the Federal Constitution a few hundred times and most of the state constitutions at least once and don't recall ever seeing any such restriction. Constitutions typically protect the right of citizens to vote but they don't say no one esle can vote. If the people of the district affected choose to allow non-citzens to vote in elections within that district that's their business.

Quote:

How is San Francisco going to determine that non-citizens are only going to vote in school board elections seeing as how most if not all school board elections take place during city, state and federal elections?

We have seperate municiple elections in the spring around here. (It looks like SF does the same thing for some of their offices.)

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I don't know. It's not very liberal of me, but I can't see why a non-citizen should be allowed to vote, or a lot of other things, actually.
Don't ask, cause I won't tell! It's my own little recently developed opinion. And I could be wrong;
There's a first time for everything Wink

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Just to throw in some random parallel: in Holland, non-citizens are allowed to vote in local (city council) elections, if they are legal residents (not the illegal immigrants thus). But they're not allowed to vote in national elections.

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The 15th Amendment was added to the Constitution just after the Civil War. It says:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

The 19th Amendment was ratified. It says:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

It says here that CITIZENS have the right to vote. It doesn't say anything about non-citizens. I guess I can't really say for states but it would make sense that they would follow the federal rule.

If people want to vote then they should become citizens, plain and simple. If you don't want to become a citizen then don't complain that you can't vote.

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It's not just citizenship that's at issue here, it's parenthood. According to the article, only parents will get the right to vote if this measure passes. As a childless person who pays taxes, I'm outraged. And don't even get me started re citizenship or noncitizenship.

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Baldimo wrote:

The 15th Amendment was added to the Constitution just after the Civil War. It says:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

The 19th Amendment was ratified. It says:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

It says here that CITIZENS have the right to vote. It doesn't say anything about non-citizens. I guess I can't really say for states but it would make sense that they would follow the federal rule.

Great. Now where does it say that ONLY citzens can vote? Where does it say that the privilege of voting can't be extended beyond those that have a right to vote?

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It says right there that citizens can vote. It doesn't say non-citizens can vote. So by deduction you could say that only citizens can vote.

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Baldimo wrote:

It says right there that citizens can vote. It doesn't say non-citizens can vote. So by deduction you could say that only citizens can vote.

You could say that but it doesn't hold water. It doesn't say non-citizens CAN'T vote. As a citizen your right to vote is protected at the Constutional level. For non-citizens it would just be decided at a lower level.

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winter.mist wrote:

Anyone that pays taxes should be allowed to vote. I am a citizen, but my husband is a resident alien. I find it incredibly unfair that he must pay taxes and does not receive the right the right to vote. So much for "No taxation without representation".

All your husband need do is become a citizen. There are attendant responsibilities and rights to being a citizen: voting is one of the latter.

Should the US reinstitute the draft anytime soon, non-citizen residents would not be subject to conscription. I would find it incredibly unfair that a non-citizen resident got to vote, but wasn't subject to the draft.

Paying taxes is paying for services.

Presumably your husband benefits from the services Federal, State and Local taxes fund.

When I visit Canada or England I pay their VAT taxes. Should I have the right to vote in their elections?

It is a perfectly ridiculous notion that non-citizens should have the right to vote. Every non-citizen who pays taxes and is legally sanctioned to reside in this country can become a citizen. If they are too lazy to do so, I have a hard time championing their right to take part in our elections. If they refuse to give up their foreign citizenship than I would vigorous oppose their having a right to vote in our elections.

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Driving down the street and not expecting to run into a pothole which is just one of the things taxes pay for is quite a bit different than the privelege to vote. Is it that difficult to become a citizen?

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It's real easy. Only citizens have voting rights in the US. That's it. Taxes shmaxes, Holland Smholland, Mencken(you know the drill.)

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I'm a permanent resident!

winter.mist wrote:

Anyone that pays taxes should be allowed to vote. I am a citizen, but my husband is a resident alien. I find it incredibly unfair that he must pay taxes and does not receive the right the right to vote. So much for "No taxation without representation".

I agree! I am a permanent resident here in the U.S. and agree that I should not be able to vote. U.S. citizens have a vested interest in the success of this country. A alien, whether immigrant or non-immigrant does not have that same interest because if the place fell apart you could leave for your home country.

I think the restriction, as outlined in the Consitution, is for the protection of not only the right to vote (for citizens) but also for the longevity of the country. It's the same reason you have to be a natural-born U.S. citizen to be President.

I am in the process of acquiring the priviledge of being a U.S. citizen and will cherish that right dearly after I have gone through the established process.

Talking of the issue of taxes. The only taxes the federal government collects from the average person is income tax. Sales tax and property tax is usually state or local jurisdiction. What happens if someone is unemployed or a homemaker - do they not qualify for citizenship because they do not pay taxes?

Citizenship, like many other things, is a priviledge... not an entitlement. Taxes, unfortunately, are a necessary evil to run the country and its government.

If your husband does not want to be a citizen and not pay taxes... I'm ok with that as long and he uses absolutely no government services.

No library, public transit, national and state parks, roads, schools, community colleges and universities, water & sewer, publicly funded museums and attractions, trash collection, unemployment, social security, security at airports and other high-terror risk locations, customs and border control, etc.

Basically, if you don't want to pay taxes in this country you would have to be the tree in your front yard.

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Quote:

Anyone that pays taxes should be allowed to vote. I am a citizen, but my husband is a resident alien. I find it incredibly unfair that he must pay taxes and does not receive the right the right to vote. So much for "No taxation without representation".

Anyone here as a resident alien and is not pursuing citizenship is only here to take advantage of our system and not interested in being an American. No Vote but paying taxes helps pay for the system he is taking advantage of.

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Non-citizen voting.

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