1
   

Joe Wilson: His Response

 
 
Reply Wed 21 Jul, 2004 09:19 pm
I haven't seen this posted here yet. It's a pretty interesting read. But long... Sorry if it's a repeat.

Joe Wilson Once Again Under Character Assassination Attack by the GOP Junk Yard Dogs: His Response

A BUZZFLASH NEWS ALERT

Joseph C. Wilson, IV

July 15, 2004

The Honorable Pat Roberts
Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

The Honorable Jay Rockefeller
Vice Chairman, Senate Select Committee on Intelligence


Dear Senator Roberts and Senator Rockefeller,

I read with great surprise and consternation the Niger portion of Senators Roberts, Bond and Hatch "additional comments to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Assessment on Iraq. I am taking this opportunity to clarify some of the issues raised in these comments.

First conclusion: "The plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested by the former ambassador's wife, a CIA employee."

That is not true. The conclusion is apparently based on one anodyne quote from a memo Valerie Plame, my wife sent to her superiors that says "my husband has good relations with the PM (prime minister) and the former Minister of Mines, (not to mention lots of French contacts) both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." There is no suggestion or recommendation in that statement that I be sent on the trip. Indeed it is little more than a recitation of my contacts and bona fides. The conclusion is reinforced by comments in the body of the report that a CPD reports officer stated the "the former ambassador's wife ?'offered up his name'" (page 39) and a State Department Intelligence and Research officer that the "meeting was ?'apparently convened by [the former ambassador's] wife who had the idea to dispatch him to use his contacts to sort out the Iraq-Niger uranium issue."

In fact, Valerie was not in the meeting at which the subject of my trip was raised. Neither was the CPD Reports officer. After having escorted me into the room, she departed the meeting to avoid even the appearance of conflict of interest. It was at that meeting where the question of my traveling to Niger was broached with me for the first time and came only after a thorough discussion of what the participants did and did not know about the subject. My bona fides justifying the invitation to the meeting were the trip I had previously taken to Niger to look at other uranium related questions as well as 20 years living and working in Africa, and personal contacts throughout the Niger government. Neither the CPD reports officer nor the State analyst were in the chain of command to know who, or how, the decision was made. The interpretations attributed to them are not the full story. In fact, it is my understanding that the Reports Officer has a different conclusion about Valerie's role than the one offered in the "additional comments". I urge the committee to reinterview the officer and publicly publish his statement.

It is unfortunate that the report failed to include the CIA's position on this matter. If the staff had done so it would undoubtedly have been given the same evidence as provided to Newsday reporters Tim Phelps and Knut Royce in July, 2003. They reported on July 22 that:

"A senior intelligence officer confirmed that Plame was a Directorate of Operations undercover officer who worked ?'alongside' the operations officers who asked her husband to travel to Niger.

"But he said she did not recommend her husband to undertake the Niger assignment. ?'They (the officers who did ask Wilson to check the uranium story) were aware of who she was married to, which is not surprising,' he said. ?'There are people elsewhere in government who are trying to make her look like she was the one who was cooking this up, for some reason,' he said. ?'I can't figure out what it could be.'

"We paid his (Wilson's) airfare. But to go to Niger is not exactly a benefit. Most people you'd have to pay big bucks to go there,' the senior intelligence official said. Wilson said. he was reimbursed only for expenses." (Newsday article Columnist blows CIA Agent's cover, dated July 22, 2003).

In fact, on July 13 of this year, David Ensor, the CNN correspondent, did call the CIA for a statement of its position and reported that a senior CIA official confirmed my account that Valerie did not propose me for the trip:

"'She did not propose me', he [Wilson] said--others at the CIA did so. A senior CIA official said that is his understanding too.'"

Second conclusion: "Rather that speaking publicly about his actual experiences during his inquiry of the Niger issue, the former ambassador seems to have included information he learned from press accounts and from his beliefs about how the Intelligence Community would have or should have handled the information he provided."

This conclusion states that I told the committee staff that I "may have become confused about my own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported that the names and dates on the documents were not correct." At the time that I was asked that question, I was not afforded the opportunity to review the articles to which the staff was referring. I have now done so.

On March 7, 2003 the Director General of the IAEA reported to the United Nations Security Council that the documents that had been given to him were "not authentic". His deputy, Jacques Baute, was even more direct, pointing out that the forgeries were so obvious that a quick Google search would have exposed their flaws. A State Department spokesman was quoted the next day as saying about the forgeries "We fell for it." From that time on the details surrounding the documents became public knowledge and were widely reported. I was not the source of information regarding the forensic analysis of the documents in question; the IAEA was.

The first time I spoke publicly about the Niger issue was in response to the State Department's disclaimer. On CNN a few days later, in response to a question, I replied that I believed the US government knew more about the issue than the State Department spokesman had let on and that he had misspoken. I did not speak of my trip.

My first public statement was in my article of July 6 published in the New York Times, written only after it became apparent that the administration was not going to deal with the Niger question unless it was forced to. I wrote the article because I believed then, and I believe now, that it was important to correct the record on the statement in the President's State of the Union address which lent credence to the charge that Iraq was actively reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. I believed that the record should reflect the facts as the US government had known them for over a year. The contents of my article do not appear in the body of the report and is not quoted in the "additional comments." In that article, I state clearly that "As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors - they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government - and were probably forged. (And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)"

The first time I actually saw what were represented as the documents was when Andrea Mitchell, the NBC correspondent handed them to me in an interview on July 21. I was not wearing my glasses and could not read them. I have to this day not read them. I would have absolutely no reason to claim to have done so. My mission was to look into whether such a transaction took place or could take place. It had not and could not. By definition that makes the documents bogus.

The text of the "additional comments" also asserts that "during Mr. Wilson's media blitz, he appeared on more than thirty television shows including entertainment venues. Time and again, Joe Wilson told anyone who would listen that the President had lied to the American people, that the Vice President had lied, and that he had "debunked" the claim that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa."

My article in the New York Times makes clear that I attributed to myself "a small role in the effort to verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional weapons programs." After it became public that there were then Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick's report and the report from a four star Marine Corps General, Carleton Fulford in the files of the U. S. government, I went to great lengths to point out that mine was but one of three reports on the subject. I never claimed to have "debunked" the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa. I claimed only that the transaction described in the documents that turned out to be forgeries could not have and did not occur. I did not speak out on the subject until several months after it became evident that what underpinned the assertion in the State of the Union address were those documents, reports of which had sparked Vice President Cheney's original question that led to my trip. The White House must have agreed. The day after my article appeared in the Times a spokesman for the President told the Washington Post that "the sixteen words did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union."


I have been very careful to say that while I believe that the use of the sixteen words in the State of the Union address was a deliberate attempt to deceive the Congress of the United States, I do not know what role the President may have had other than he has accepted responsibility for the words he spoke. I have also said on many occasions that I believe the President has proven to be far more protective of his senior staff than they have been to him.

The "additional comments" also assert: "The Committee found that, for most analysts the former ambassador's report lent more credibility, not less, to the reported Niger-Iraq uranium deal." In fact, the body of the Senate report suggests the exact opposite:

In August, 2002, a CIA NESA report on Iraq's weapons of Mass Destruction capabilities did not include the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium information. (pg. 48)
In September, 2002, during coordination of a speech with an NSC staff member, the CIA analyst suggested the reference to Iraqi attempts to acquire uranium from Africa be removed. The CIA analyst said the NSC staff member said that would leave the British "flapping in the wind." (pg. 50)
The uranium text was included in the body of the NIE but not in the key judgments. When someone suggested that the uranium information be included as another sign of reconstitution, the INR Iraq nuclear analyst spoke up and said the he did not agree with the uranium reporting and that INR would be including text indicating their disagreement in their footnote on nuclear reconstitution. The NIO said he did not recall anyone really supporting including the uranium issue as part of the judgment that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program, so he suggested that the uranium information did not need to be part of the key judgments. He told Committee staff he suggested that "We'll leave it in the paper for completeness. Nobody can say we didn't connect the dots. But we don't have to put that dot in the key judgments." (pg. 53)
On October 2, 2002, the Deputy DCI testified before the SSCI. Senator Jon Kyl asked the Deputy DCI whether he had read the British White Paper and whether he disagreed with anything in the report. The Deputy DCI testified that "the one thing where I think they stretched a little bit beyond where we would stretch is on the points about where Iraq seeking uranium from various African locations. (pg.54)
On October 4, 2002 the NIO for Strategic and Nuclear Programs testified that "there is some information on attempts ….there's a question about those attempts because of the control of the material in those countries…For us it's more the concern that they (Iraq) uranium in country now. (pg. 54)
On October 5, 2002, the ADDI said an Iraq nuclear analyst - he could not remember who - raised concerns about the sourcing and some of the facts of the Niger reporting, specifically that the control of the mines in Niger would have made it very difficult to get yellowcake to Iraq. (pg. 55)
Based on the analyst's comments, the ADDI faxed a memo to the Deputy National Security Advisor that said, "remove the sentence because the amount is in dispute and it is debatable whether it can be acquired from this source. We told Congress that the Brits have exaggerated this issue. Finally, the Iraqis already have 550 metric tons of uranium oxide in their inventory. (pg. 56)
On October 6, 2002, the DCI called the Deputy National Security Advisor directly to outline the CIA's concerns. The DCI testified to the SSCI on July 16, 2003, that he told the Deputy National Security Advisor that the "President should not be a fact witness on this issue," because his analysts had told him the "reporting was weak." (pg. 56)
On October 6, 2002, the CIA sent a second fax to the White House which said, "more on why we recommend removing the sentence about procuring uranium oxide from Africa: Three points 1) the evidence is weak. One of the two mines cited by the source as the location of the uranium oxide is flooded. The other mine cited by the source is under the control of the French authorities. 2) the procurement is not particularly significant to Iraq's nuclear ambitions because the Iraqis already have a large stock of uranium oxide in their inventory. And 3) we have shared points one and two with Congress, telling them that the Africa story is overblown and telling them this in one of the two issues where we differed with the British." (Pg 56)
On March 8, 2003, the intelligence report on my trip was disseminated within the U.S. Government according the Senate report (pg. 43). Further, the Senate report states that "in early March, the Vice President asked his morning briefer for an update on the Niger uranium issue." That update from the CIA "also noted that the CIA would be debriefing a source who may have information related to the alleged sale on March 5." The report then states the "DO officials also said they alerted WINPAC analysts when the report was being disseminated because they knew the high priority of the issue." The report notes that the CIA briefer did not brief the Vice President on the report. (Pg. 46)
It is clear from the body of the Senate report that the Intelligence Community, including the DCI himself, made several attempts to ensure that the President not become a "fact witness" on an allegation that was so weak. A thorough reading of the report substantiates the claim made in my opinion piece in the New York Times and in subsequent interviews I have given on the subject. The sixteen words should never have been in the State of the Union address as the White House now acknowledges.

I undertook this mission at the request of my government in response to a legitimate concern that Saddam Hussein was attempting to reconstitute his nuclear weapons program. This was a national security issue that has concerned me since I was the Deputy Chief of Mission in the U.S. Embassy in Iraq before and during the first Gulf War.

At the time of my trip I was in private business and had not offered my views publicly on the policy we should adopt towards Iraq. Indeed, throughout the debate in the runup to the war, I took the position that the U.S. be firm with Saddam Hussein on the question of weapons of mass destruction programs including backing tough diplomacy with the credible threat of force. In that debate I never mentioned my trip to Niger. I did not share the details of my trip until May, 2003, after the war was over, and then only when it became clear that the administration was not going to address the issue of the State of the Union statement.

It is essential that the errors and distortions in the additional comments be corrected for the public record. Nothing could be more important for the American people than to have an accurate picture of the events that led to the decision to bring the United States into war in Iraq. The Senate Intelligence Committee has an obligation to present to the American people the factual basis of that process. I hope that this letter is helpful in that effort. I look forward to your further "additional comments."

Sincerely,


Joseph C. Wilson, IV
Washington, D.C

Does this clear anything up, do you think?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 982 • Replies: 19
No top replies

 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 12:07 am
Does that clear anything up? Other than that Wilson is desperately trying to spin a smokesscreen so he can back himself out of his own trap, not really. Here's something that blows away a buncha Wilson's smoke:

Quote:
The Wilson-Plame Affair (Cont'd)

By Michael Getler
Sunday, July 18, 2004; Page B06



There was no ambiguity in the conclusion of the massive report released by the Senate's bipartisan Select Committee on Intelligence on July 9. "Most of the major key judgments" made by the intelligence community about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction were "either overstated, or were not supported by, the underlying intelligence reporting. A series of failures, particularly in analytic trade craft, led to the mischaracterization of the intelligence."



The Post has done a good job sifting through and reporting on this exhaustively detailed study. But only one of perhaps a score of stories has attracted criticism from readers. That story, by staff writer Susan Schmidt, appeared on Page A9 July 10. It reported on what the committee had to say about a CIA-sponsored trip to Africa by former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV in February 2002 to investigate reports that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium in Africa, and about the role of Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, who was an undercover employee of the CIA at the time, in the decision to send him.

There is no room here to go into all the details, but Wilson's trip, and his subsequent public criticism of the Bush administration, became a much longer-running and high-profile story than his original secret assignment. In addition, a federal grand jury has been conducting a criminal investigation for several months now into who identified Plame by name to columnist Robert D. Novak a year ago.

The Post has been in the middle of all this. It carried the first stories about Wilson's trip, has probably covered this issue most thoroughly and is probably the most highly visible outlet for Novak's column, although it appears in 200 papers. So the paper, properly and alertly, included this portion of the Senate report in its first-day coverage.

Almost all the readers who had complaints relied for their objections on some critical comments by Joshua Micah Marshall, an online commentator who writes the "Talking Points Memo" Web site. Another critic, of both the story and the reporter, is Wilson, who sent me a copy of a letter to The Post that appeared in Saturday's paper.

There was one mistake in the Schmidt story, which was not central to the main points and which The Post corrected on Tuesday (more on that later). If I were the editor of this story, there are one or two places where it might have been better to use the exact words from the Senate report, or to have another sentence of background. And there was one paragraph of speculation about the possible impact of the report on the administration's case in the investigation that, in my view and the view of critics, should have been left out.

But in general, I didn't find the criticism of this story persuasive. The story, in my view, reflects the points, interviews and conclusions laid out in the Senate study.

Wilson, in his letter, refers to "the Republican-written" report. It is a bipartisan report. Wilson says "the decision to send me to Niger was not made, and could not be made, by Valerie." Neither the report, nor the story, says she made "the decision." The story says Wilson was "specifically recommended for the mission by his wife." The report says "interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife . . . suggested his name for the trip." A reports officer in her division told the committee she "offered up his name." There are other references as well to Plame's role.

Wilson takes issue with Schmidt's reporting that his report on the trip to Niger "bolstered the case" about purported uranium sales to Iraq. But the study concludes that Wilson's March 2002 report, which noted that the former prime minister of Niger said that in 1999 he was approached by a businessman insisting he meet with an Iraqi delegation (which he did not do), "lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal."

Marshall takes issue with The Post's reporting that "contrary to Wilson's assertions . . . the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the African intelligence that made its way into the 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address." Actually, the CIA fought hard, and successfully, to keep the material about Africa, aspects of which were a matter of dispute, out of a major speech Bush gave in October 2002. But the Senate study points out that in January 2003, the CIA, which still believed Iraq was probably seeking uranium from Africa, did not tell the White House to take out those 16 words from the State of the Union address and that then-CIA Director George Tenet had not even read the speech beforehand.

The error in the story occurred when Schmidt mistakenly wrote that Wilson had reported that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from Niger in 1998. The Senate report had said it was Iran. The Post correction, however, did not make it clear that the Senate report said it was Iran, which meant there were several different ways one could read the correction.

"The Post's corrections are maddening," wrote one reader. "Sometimes the most trivial errors are corrected but significant errors are ignored. Sometimes blame is fixed, especially if the Post was not at fault, but most often it is not. Sometimes the corrected information is cryptic almost to the point of secrecy in not providing more details." Now, there is something we can all agree on.


© 2004 The Washington Post Company


What next ... Wilson himself revealed to be behind the Plame leak? Bizarre conjecture, but no less bizarre than a former National Security Advisor purloining classified documents.

Wilson lied. Not Bush, not Powell, not Blair, not Rice. Wilson is still lying.
0 Replies
 
Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 07:31 am
Laughing
Quote:
Wilson lied. Not Bush, not Powell, not Blair, not Rice. Wilson is still lying.


Laughing

You are kidding?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 09:55 am
Turning Tale
by Martin Peretz

Only at TNR Online
Post date: 07.21.04
he tale spun by former Ambassador Joseph Wilson that Iraq did not ever try to buy uranium yellowcake from Niger is now in the process of unraveling. And, of course, the phalanx of anti-war journalists is desperately trying to stop the bust-up. But it can't be done.

The flying apart began with two stories in the Financial Times (London), one on June 28, the other on July 4. Relying on information ultimately sourced to three European intelligence services--none of them British and one of them that had monitored clandestine uranium smuggling to Iraq over three years--Mark Huband reported that the network also serviced or was to service Libya, Iran, China, and North Korea. A tell-tale element of the story is that the mines in Niger from which several thousand tons of uranium had been extracted and sold were owned by French companies. Apparently, after a time, they had abandoned the mines as economically unviable. But, as a counter-proliferation expert told Huband, this does not mean that extraction stopped.

In any case, Lord Butler's altogether independent panel in the United Kingdom concluded that Tony Blair's claim about Hussein being in the market for uranium was "well-founded." These are the same claims made by George W. Moreover, the U.S. Senate report undercuts Wilson's very believability.

I myself had wondered why the CIA had been so dumb--such dumbness is something to which we should have long ago become accustomed!--as to send a low-level diplomat to check on yellowcake sales from Niger to Iraq when it should have dispatched a real spook. Well, it turns out that a "real spook" had recommended him to her boss, that spook being Valerie Plame, who happens also to be Wilson's wife. He has long denied that she had anything to do with his going to Niger and that, alas, was a lie. It appears, in fact, that this is the sole reason he was sent. Still, in a lot of dining rooms where I am a guest here, there is outrage that someone in the vice president's office "outed" Ms. Plame, as though everybody in Georgetown hadn't already known she was under cover, so to speak. Under cover, but not really. One guest even asserted that someone in the vice president's office is surely guilty of treason, no less--an offense this person certainly wouldn't have attributed to the Rosenbergs or Alger Hiss, Daniel Ellsberg or Philip Agee. But for the person who confirmed for Robert Novak what he already knew, nothing but high crimes would do.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=express&s=peretz072104
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 10:10 am
Kidding, Redheat? Not at all. Simply looking at the facts as reported, not the spin. Other folks entertain themselves differently.
0 Replies
 
Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 11:02 am
timberlandko wrote:
Kidding, Redheat? Not at all. Simply looking at the facts as reported, not the spin. Other folks entertain themselves differently.



Sorry but if you're claiming that then you aren't dealing in facts.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 11:27 am
Maybe I'm looking at different facts, Redheat; I'm going by the assessments of "The 16 Words" presented in the two major governmental inquiries extant, the Congressional 9/11 Inquiry Commission Report and Britain's Butler Report, as well as independent findings as published by The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Financial Times, and numerous others. Wilson's version has been shot full of holes; the man, along with his assertions, has been thoroughly discredited in the eyes of all but the most ardent spinmasters, and I really expect things will get no better for him. At this point, the best he can hope for is to rapidly fade to footnote status and to avoid further notoriety by means of escaping prosecution.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 11:30 am
I believe, timber, that those who want to find conclusions badly enough invariably will find them. After all, it's the same logic that led us to war in Iraq in the first place.

Thus, your stance on this issue completely fails to surprise me.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 11:46 am
Seems to me Timber is reciting facts rather than ideology.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 01:44 pm
Believe as your faith may find agreeable, Cycloptichorn. On what currently is the preponderance of evidence as represented by verifiable documentation, sworn testimony, corroborative finding and congruent anecdote, I believe your belief to be in error. Perhaps its a personal flaw, but I've always felt fact trumps faith, and that partisan editorial opinion pieces, regardless of sympathy or point-of-view, are not news. I view that as pragmatism, not partisanship. Your mileage may vary.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 02:03 pm
"Still, in a lot of dining rooms where I am a guest here, there is outrage that someone in the vice president's office "outed" Ms. Plame, as though everybody in Georgetown hadn't already known she was under cover, so to speak. Under cover, but not really. One guest even asserted that someone in the vice president's office is surely guilty of treason, no less--an offense this person certainly wouldn't have attributed to the Rosenbergs or Alger Hiss, Daniel Ellsberg or Philip Agee. But for the person who confirmed for Robert Novak what he already knew, nothing but high crimes would do."

Really, foxfyre, you don't find that completely over the top?
Whatever Joe Wilson has said and done, there was still NO JUSTIFICATION for outing his wife! Everyone in Georgetown already knew, hmm? Now everyone in the world knows! That's NOT okay.


Maybe in the rabid righty world, one crime erases another, but not here on earth. If the allegations against Wilson are true, that doesn't diminish what was done by the other side. Hello... ????
0 Replies
 
Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 02:10 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Maybe I'm looking at different facts, Redheat; I'm going by the assessments of "The 16 Words" presented in the two major governmental inquiries extant, the Congressional 9/11 Inquiry Commission Report and Britain's Butler Report, as well as independent findings as published by The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Financial Times, and numerous others. Wilson's version has been shot full of holes; the man, along with his assertions, has been thoroughly discredited in the eyes of all but the most ardent spinmasters, and I really expect things will get no better for him. At this point, the best he can hope for is to rapidly fade to footnote status and to avoid further notoriety by means of escaping prosecution.


None of those support the allegations and "truths" told by Powell ( who plagerzied and recited by intelligence at the UN otherwise lied) Rice ( mushroom cloud ring a bell?) Bush ( so many lies it's easier to ask when he told the truth)

Nuclear Weapons- Bush and Co KNEW before they came out with the SOTU that the intel was bad and based on forged materials They still went ahead with the premise that it was true.

Inspectors- Bush said they weren't allowed in, lie. That they weren't allowed access- lie

WMD- Everything points to bad intelligence however facts are people were telling the Bush administration (Clarke ring a bell) that the intelligence was wrong. They ignored the warnings and stated they KNEW where they were and what was there.

So far NO report has backed up a SINGLE assertion by the Bush administration on any reasons they gave for war, that's a FACT.

Besides that they use OLD allegations like the gassing of his own people. Did he do it. Yes over 10 years ago and with the silence of his very own father.

Most of the intel used for War was from Chabali ( a criminal) which you don't hear anything about. All the intel he gave were lies. The rest comes from OLD information from the 80's that is irrelevant. Even Bush Sr. manufactured evidence for the Iraq war.

So don't tell me you are stating facts timber, you are stating the same tired old lies that have long been proven lies. When you want to give me specific FACTS, and support them with something other then your imagination I will glad to read them.

However DON'T tell me they didn't lie when I know damn well they did!
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 02:11 pm
Well Suzy, if she had more of a role in this fiasco than had been previously admitted, and apparently she did, and if she participated in the coverup of lies that had far reaching implications for the nation's security, then yeah, she should be outed, which as the author says, she essentially already was.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 02:21 pm
Timber,

The point of my post is that you WANT to believe that the admin is blameless in this issue, and therefore, have found 'facts' to SUPPORT that belief. I put facts in quotes because I have yet to see any evidence that would support the admin's innocence on this one - after all, the 'facts' put forth in in the first post of this thread were summarily dismissed by you without consideration, whereas yours are apparently fundemental truths.

I think it is mighty convienent that certain 'facts' are overlooked all the time, and others are used to create a damning case against one's opponents. I think both sides of the debate are equally guilty of this.

Therefore,

Perhaps someone can break down the argument against the Plames in a simple fashion for me, in order to outline the case against them, with specific attention paid to chronology?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 02:37 pm
Redheat, I just can't reach the same conclusions you leap to. I know you find it irritating and impossible to accept, but the actual legal evidence does not support the contentions you so cherish. Given the litigious nature of The Democratic Party, that none of their strident allegations of wrongdoing on the part of The Republican Party and The Current Administration have been accorded any juridical credence since the failed attempt to use the courts to invalidate the 2000 election is telling in and of itself, as is the demonstrated electoral performance of The Democratic Party over the past decade. And so is the standard Democratic complaint of a "Vast Rightwing Conspiracy"; such a notion would require half The Electorate be "in on the conspiracy". Pardon me, Democrats, but your absurdity is showing.
0 Replies
 
Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 02:50 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Redheat, I just can't reach the same conclusions you leap to. I know you find it irritating and impossible to accept, but the actual legal evidence does not support the contentions you so cherish. Given the litigious nature of The Democratic Party, that none of their strident allegations of wrongdoing on the part of The Republican Party and The Current Administration have been accorded any juridical credence since the failed attempt to use the courts to invalidate the 2000 election is telling in and of itself, as is the demonstrated electoral performance of The Democratic Party over the past decade. And so is the standard Democratic complaint of a "Vast Rightwing Conspiracy"; such a notion would require half The Electorate be "in on the conspiracy". Pardon me, Democrats, but your absurdity is showing.


Timber can we get past the rhetoric.

If you have some FACT to post, post it! Then support it! that simple the rest is just filler which suggests that you can't back up what your saying.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 03:14 pm
Fact: Wilson has been discredited.
Fact: No charge levelled against The Current Administration has been successfully litigated.
Fact: Some folks aren't happy with either of those facts.
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 05:03 pm
"And so is the standard Democratic complaint of a "Vast Rightwing Conspiracy"; such a notion would require half The Electorate be "in on the conspiracy"

NO, it wouldn't. Just the evil cabal now in power, both within and outside the administration.

"Given the litigious nature of The Democratic Party"

What litigious nature? oh, you mean like when we got Kenneth Starr to waste millions jumping all over Clinton?
Or was it that pesky Watergate investigation?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 05:14 pm
Am I missing something here? What does evil cabal, litigious nature of the Democratic party, Ken Starr jumping all over Clinton, and Watergate have to do with Mr. and Mrs. Wilson?
0 Replies
 
the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2004 06:48 pm
see post 803465 for the answer to that query.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Joe Wilson: His Response
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 03/05/2026 at 01:31:44