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Tort Reform

 
 
Redheat
 
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 09:32 am
Tort reform is becoming a major political issue in many states and federally. Here in FL it will be on the Nov. ballot. The goal is to reduce the money Trial Lawyers can make on any case thus reducing the cost of insurance. Many doctors are behind this iniative. My question is where do we stop?

Should be limit the amount that Doctors can charge for office visits? Shouldn't there be a standarized price for office visits depending on what kind of Doctor you are seeing? Seems to me that Doctors charging $200 for one office visit when they see you only for 5-10 minutes is excessive and the insurance companies have to pay. So let's limit the amount Doctors can charge for services.

Why stop there?

Dentist, they should be included right? So let's set a standardized pricing for Dentist and what they can charge you.

Let's take it further. Why worry about just insurance costs?

Let's limit the amount CEO's and Executives make as to lower the cost of goods.

Hell let's tell retailers they are only allowed to mark up goods a certain % and this goes for all designers too.

Let's limit what movie stars can make on each film so the ticket prices quit going up!

Why not just publish a book of prices for every job and service making sure that NO ONE makes anything over what is "appropriate" this way we can lower costs all across the board!

If we are going to have Tort Reform why stop there? Let's take it all the way, what do you say?


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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,692 • Replies: 22
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Sagamore
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 10:30 am
"Tort Reform" is a GOP euphemism for taking care of our contributors. The GOP is great for making up villains (in this case, trial lawyers) and passing legislation to hurt them in favor of their contributors (in this case, insurance companies).

Any time you see legislation sponsored by republicans and labelled "reform", look out.

The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 was a great example of right wing assistance to corporations in loosening reporting requirements. Passed into law over Clinton's veto, it set in motion the corporate scandals that came into the public domain early in Bush's term. Clinton understood what Gingrich was doing but the bill passed anyway, to the detriment of the public.

Republicans have a different sense of what "reform" means. They use the word in legislation to suggest they are correcting an injustice when what they are really doing is creating one.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 10:35 am
Sagamore wrote:
Republicans have a different sense of what "reform" means. They use the word in legislation to suggest they are correcting an injustice when what they are really doing is creating one.


And in the mean time you'll be sitting on the sidelines moaning about the dearth of doctors and rising healthcare costs and crying out "Why won't somebody doooo something???"
0 Replies
 
Sagamore
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 11:26 am
Fishin'-insurance company profits are at record highs. But, this kind of "reform" puts the blame solely at the feet of the attorneys who represent the victims of medical malpractice.

If you were the victim of poor doctoring, or inadequate product safety measures, you would hire a lawyer in an effort to make you whole. Why blame them? This entire process stinks and the lawyers are no more at fault than the doctors or the insurance companies. Less so, if anything.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:07 pm
fishin' wrote:
And in the mean time you'll be sitting on the sidelines moaning about the dearth of doctors and rising healthcare costs and crying out "Why won't somebody doooo something???"

Why would Republicans want to do anything about the tort system? Isn't this the kind of thing that the free market is supposed to handle more efficiently than the government?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:17 pm
Sagamore wrote:
Fishin'-insurance company profits are at record highs. But, this kind of "reform" puts the blame solely at the feet of the attorneys who represent the victims of medical malpractice.

If you were the victim of poor doctoring, or inadequate product safety measures, you would hire a lawyer in an effort to make you whole. Why blame them? This entire process stinks and the lawyers are no more at fault than the doctors or the insurance companies. Less so, if anything.


It isn't assigning any blame. It's recognizing that every other portion of the system is already regulated and controlled and limiting suit awards to match the limitations created across the rest of the system.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:19 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Why would Republicans want to do anything about the tort system? Isn't this the kind of thing that the free market is supposed to handle more efficiently than the government?


Eliminating artifical insurance rate caps, artifical caps on medical costs and limitations on procedures would be a preferred way of attacking the problem but that isn't likely to happen.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:21 pm
fishin' wrote:
Eliminating artifical insurance rate caps, artifical caps on medical costs and limitations on procedures would be a preferred way of attacking the problem but that isn't likely to happen.

What "artificial insurance rate caps?" You'll have to explain.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:35 pm
Insurance rates (premiums) aren't all set by the free market. The states often regulate what the insurance companies can charge and what items they must cover in their policies.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:40 pm
fishin' wrote:
Insurance rates (premiums) aren't all set by the free market. The states often regulate what the insurance companies can charge and what items they must cover in their policies.

Well, that's true for some types of insurance (e.g. auto insurance), but less so for medical malpractice insurance. In fact, I've never heard of an insurance company complaining that it could not raise its med-mal premiums because of a state-imposed rate ceiling.
0 Replies
 
Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:43 pm
Curious

What part do you think Doctors fees, hospital fee's and services etc.. have in the rising cost in insurance?

What part do bad stock market investments by Insurance companies have in this?

Are they any figures being produced that show Services cost v. Law suit money paid out? I've not seen anything.

So why stop here fishin? If rising costs are so out of control why not take it further? Why just deal with law suits? Let's start standarizing ALL services as to keep costs low that way car insurance, and life insurance can also be lowered.

Some facts

Quote:
But a new study by the General Accounting Office (GAO), the investigative arm of Congress, has reached a very different conclusion about the effect of rising malpractice premiums on consumers. Investigators who studied nine states found instances of localized but not widespread problems of access to health care mostly in "scattered, often rural, areas" that have long-standing problems attracting doctors.

And many of those highly publicized accounts of doctors who have retired or moved are, according to the GAO, either "not substantiated," temporary or involved only a few physicians.

In Pennsylvania and West Virginia, for example, two of 19 states designated by the AMA as being in a "full-blown liability crisis," the number of doctors per capita has actually increased in the past six years, according to the GAO.


Source


Quote:


Source


Quote:
doctors and hospitals was one of the "prime causes" of rising health-care costs. Bush's words suggest a correlation between health-care costs and the premiums physicians and hospitals pay to protect themselves in lawsuits.

Yet between 1988 and 1998, U.S. health-care costs increased 74.4 percent while malpractice premiums increased 5.7 percent. The total premiums paid in 2000 added up to 0.56 of the nation's total health-care bill.

Bush asked Congress to "pass medical-liability reform" that would limit malpractice awards. The House passed it. Senate Democrats thwarted the bill this week. Bush wants Americans to believe that if insurance companies have to pay smaller damages to injured patients, physicians will have lower premiums and health-care costs could actually be held down.

Wrong again.

New information in a national database that collects reports of every judgment and settlement paid in malpractice demonstrates just the opposite. An analysis of that data by a consumer-advocacy group reveals malpractice payouts decreased by 8.2 percent between 2001 and 2002. Meanwhile, doctors" premiums didn't go down.

Damage awards greater than $1 million decreased more than 10 percent between those years. Doctors" premiums weren't affected.


Source

Quote:
The Frist family fortune was built on HCA, and Senate financial disclosures reveal that Senator Frist and his immediate family hold at least $25 million in HCA stock, according to a report in USA Today.

"While HCA hospitals and doctors would benefit were Congress to limit malpractice liability, its gains pale in comparison to those of HCI. The insurer's risk would plummet while profits soared if a medical malpractice cap to limit the company's losses were imposed nationwide," said FTCR's letter, below. "HCI, HCA and your entire family, stand to profit directly from the passage of malpractice caps legislation."

Senator Frist brought Nevada Senator Ensign's S. 11 to the Senate floor today, circumventing customary public hearings and debate. The bill is modeled after H.R. 5, malpractice cap legislation which passed the House of Representatives in March and would limit non-economic damages for victims of medical malpractice to $250,000.


Source

For More
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 12:58 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Well, that's true for some types of insurance (e.g. auto insurance), but less so for medical malpractice insurance. In fact, I've never heard of an insurance company complaining that it could not raise its med-mal premiums because of a state-imposed rate ceiling.


Linky

I guess that'll be your first then. Wink
0 Replies
 
winter mist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 02:01 pm
More information on how tort reform does NOT decrease physician premiums:

Quote:
In a startling admission, the American Insurance Association (AIA), a major insurance industry trade group, says lawmakers who enact "tort reform" should not expect insurance rates to dropÂ….

Said CJ&D Executive Director Joanne Doroshow, "We would like to thank the insurance industry for finally admitting what is already obvious: that they have not cut, and have no plans to cut, insurance premiums for doctors, hospitals or other businesses as a consequence of 'tort reform' -- restrictions on consumers' rights to sue wrongdoers in court.

Source
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 02:07 pm
As has been pointed out, all Republican "reforms" are ways to get more money into the pockets of special interests.
0 Replies
 
Redheat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 02:11 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
As has been pointed out, all Republican "reforms" are ways to get more money into the pockets of special interests.


Yes and to deflect focus on issues they don't know how to address.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 03:12 pm
Redheat wrote:
Some facts

Quote:
But a new study by the General Accounting Office (GAO), the investigative arm of Congress, has reached a very different conclusion about the effect of rising malpractice premiums on consumers. Investigators who studied nine states found instances of localized but not widespread problems of access to health care mostly in "scattered, often rural, areas" that have long-standing problems attracting doctors.

And many of those highly publicized accounts of doctors who have retired or moved are, according to the GAO, either "not substantiated," temporary or involved only a few physicians.

In Pennsylvania and West Virginia, for example, two of 19 states designated by the AMA as being in a "full-blown liability crisis," the number of doctors per capita has actually increased in the past six years, according to the GAO.


The American Association of Trial Lawyers is your unbiased source for this? lmao! I think they forgot a few items. That very same GAO Report also said "Multiple factors, including falling investment income and rising reinsurance costs, have contributed to recent increases in premium rates in our sample states. "

Quote:
doctors and hospitals was one of the "prime causes" of rising health-care costs. Bush's words suggest a correlation between health-care costs and the premiums physicians and hospitals pay to protect themselves in lawsuits.

Yet between 1988 and 1998, U.S. health-care costs increased 74.4 percent while malpractice premiums increased 5.7 percent. The total premiums paid in 2000 added up to 0.56 of the nation's total health-care bill.


Malpractice premiums only increased 5.7%??? Really? Oh, did they forget to mention that according to that very same GAO report 60% of doctors and hospitals have dropped out of commercial insurance plans and became self insured? So let's see... 60% of the people paying in drop out and the total paid in STILL goes up 5.7%. Now if there were 100 doctors each paying $100/year that'd be a total of $10,000. If 60% dropped out that'd leave 40 and the total paid increased by 5.7% that'd bring that up to $10,570. Divide $10,570 by the 40 remaining doctors and they each end up paying in $264.25 so for the doctors their insurance rates went up by what? About 150%.... What does the total of the nations health bill come out to when you factor in the self-insurance cost for the 60% of the doctors and hospitals?

The GAO Report can be found here:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03702.pdf
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 03:15 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
As has been pointed out, all Republican "reforms" are ways to get more money into the pockets of special interests.


Yes. Of course those pesky Democrats don't have their heads up the asses of the NEA, the Trial Lawyers Assoc, the AFL/CIO and hundreds of other groups do they? Please. Your pathetic drivel is getting stale.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 03:21 pm
Stale but on the money.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 03:41 pm
fishin' wrote:
I guess that'll be your first then. Wink

Well, I'm not so sure. That doesn't look like a "cap" or a "ceiling" on insurance rates, but rather an insurance commissioner rejecting a request to raise rates. A fine distinction, I'll admit, but a real one nonetheless.

Furthermore, I can't quite figure out, from reading the linked story, if the Texas insurance commissioner was acting pursuant to the state's own version of tort reform -- did Texas tie damage caps to insurance rate caps (as was done, I believe, in Florida)? If that's the case, then it's somewhat incongruous to claim that artificial rate caps are contributing to the "med mal crisis," since they would have been instituted as part of the solution.

(As an aside, fishin': posting long URL's can stretch some computer screens, making it difficult to read not only your post but every post in a thread. I strongly urge you to use the {url=address}TEXT{/url} feature to truncate those long web addresses -- just replace the {}s with []s)
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jul, 2004 03:50 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Well, I'm not so sure. That doesn't look like a "cap" or a "ceiling" on insurance rates, but rather an insurance commissioner rejecting a request to raise rates. A fine distinction, I'll admit, but a real one nonetheless.


If you can't raise the rates aren't they capped?

Quote:
Furthermore, I can't quite figure out, from reading the linked story, if the Texas insurance commissioner was acting pursuant to the state's own version of tort reform -- did Texas tie damage caps to insurance rate caps (as was done, I believe, in Florida)? If that's the case, then it's somewhat incongruous to claim that artificial rate caps are contributing to the "med mal crisis," since they would have been instituted as part of the solution.


TX implemented a tort reform package that limits non-financial claims (I don't rememebr the exact term..). My understanding of it is that you can collect any amount that you can prove in actual losses (i.e. lost current and future wages, medical care costs, modifications that might become required for your house/car, etc..) but other amounts are limited to an amount set by their legislature (that amount is supposed to be reviewed every few years). I don't know if it is tied to the rate caps or not.

That seems a better alternative that some other states that just put a flat amount on it. I'm not sure when that went into effect.

Quote:

(As an aside, fishin': posting long URL's can stretch some computer screens, making it difficult to read not only your post but every post in a thread. I strongly urge you to use the {url=address}TEXT{/url} feature to truncate those long web addresses -- just replace the {}s with []s)


Yeah, I'll fix that. Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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