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Removing criminals from society without going to their level

 
 
steissd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:01 pm
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:02 pm
roger,

Can you explain? Me is ignorant 'bout that.


edit:
steissd,

Whta will it take for me to convince you that this is not a topic to discuss the merits of capital punishment but a hypothetical topic of an exotic punishment?

I am well aware that you are enamoured with capital punishment, I am trying to see what moral objections anyone has to the exotic one. Your objection (that you prefer capital punishment) is already clear, but do you have anything to say about the topic?
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Booman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:05 pm
All studies seem to show that:
...1) Capitol punishment is not a deterrent.
...2) " " is hardest on the poor, and sometimes kill innocent people.
...3) Capitol Punishment cost MORE than life imprisonment.

The fact that 70% of americans still would favor CP, even in a recession, let's me know we live in a barbaric, bloodthirsty society.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:09 pm
Please, there are already CP topics, this is a crazy outlandish criminal island or criminal planet topic.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:24 pm
Conventry written by Robert Heinlein. A sink or swim penal colony in the future. It ultimately ended up with a political and legal system remarkably like Chicago in the 20th century.

I recommend the book by the way. Much to think on, whether you agree with the thesis or not


Coventry et.al.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:29 pm
Steissd, I'm sorta with you on some of that. Betraying one's nation, or Crimes Against Humanity merit the most condign attention, and should be accorded that attention for no longer than required to ensure justice be done in the matter, thus relieving the matter need of further attention as expeditiously as may be possible. Other than that, I'm not Pro Death Penalty.

Even the most heinous sado-sicko/serial killers are more diseased than "Evil". "Putting them down" is a kindness. I believe an indertiminately long, featureless, futureless life of essentially solitary contemplation of the horrors one has wrought not only for others but self is a more fitting punishment. Those whose disregard of the value of human life allows them to take it in pursuit of advantage should be made to realize a life fully paid in the consequence of that value judgement. I dislike the notion of releiving such folks of responsibility for their actions. They should live with, and be conscious of, their just consequences for as long as security and medical technology permit. "Killin's too good fer 'em"



timber
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:35 pm
Well, I have proposed above an alternative sickos'/serial killers' treatment, that may efficiently replace capital punishment. And if they are made to perform hard labor, their keeping in prison would cost nothing to the budget, even bring some revenues. Lobotomy is necessary to suppress their aggression and to make them unable to escape.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:35 pm
What on earth is wrong with revenge. Do we have to buy into the idea that all our instincts are wrong?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:40 pm
I do not think all our instincts are wrong I think they are largely devoid of logic. They are imp-ulsive and driven by base urges that do not go well with rational thinking.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:41 pm
Need isolated land that is uninhabited. There is very little in the world except Antarticia. But, there is already a treaty by all countries that garage can not be off loaded there! The land must be big cause we got lots of off loading in material America alone.
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Booman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:41 pm
That's always been my thinking Timber. If I came upon someone in the act of, or soon after, killing or raping, a family member of mine, I might kill them on the spot. However, with time to think about it, I would love to have them spend the rest of their life in jail. I dunno'. they might find peace in death.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:43 pm
Steissd,

Hard labor is an interesting point, on any penal colony they'd have to toil to survive.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:52 pm
No guards, no nothing - just survive?
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Lash Goth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:54 pm
My husband and I played around with the idea of a huge Alcatraz, but I think the idea is a punishment worse than CP. You will still have innocent people sent there.

I believe the scenario is much like Hell, if you imagine Hell as lawlessness and being left to the whims of the cruellest, most deviant members of society.

The leper colonies gave rise to all sorts of murder, mob groups and corruption. And, as carefully as we may guard it, I think retribution would come floating to our shores in time.

In this scenario, shouldn't men and women be on different areas (planets/islands). Subjecting children to this Hell would be unforgivable.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:58 pm
bill,
guards only to prevent entry and exit they would be on craft outside the area.

Lash,

Separating men and women and the issue of children is one of the only issues I mentioned (in the first post).
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 06:58 pm
definitely different islands, but in view of each other with hungry sharks and all other matters of hell in between!
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 07:47 pm
Men and women..different places indeed.
Interesting topic Craven.
It is a possibility, and could work as more of a deterent than the systems we have in place now. Also gives us more freedom from those who have shown rehabilitation only to fail.
Hard labor, yep, that would work, survival...thats an idea. I would think though that there would have to be numerous colonies...thinking on the survival of the fittest, first there thing and all that...yep, lots a killin. However....if you take say the most overcrowded facility and ship them all to one place at one time...hey..good luck.
Im assuming this is all in a world in which we know they are guilty and/or unable to rehabilitate before shipping them off.
Taking that into consideration..yeah, I think some serious issues with regard to communications in the area for either side is a good point, communication abilities being equal to other scientific technology and all that.
Could be interesting.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 07:56 pm
Hmmmmm - there is a horrible fascination to this. I assume, for argument, that the people we are describing are either career criminals who have been brutal and are chronic recidivists or are guilty of especially heinous violence - (cos none of you are, for instance, taking into account that the "ordinary" murderer is one of the least likely to re-offend of all criminals!)

One question is, if, indeed, many murder each other - is it simply removing the blood a tad further from our hands? I see no advantage to this if that is what happens.

Anther question - is it fair to say that they are responsible for their own society - since presumably only the strongest and meanest would survive/control things?

What about illness - especially very painful and horrible illnesses like cancer? Are we happy to condemn people to effective torture?

I will be back later on this one.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 08:23 pm
I read Lash's post and thought of Abuzz.

Spending eternity with Zinger and massagattos. Shocked

In person.

With the heat turned WAY up.

Truly the definition of hell. Twisted Evil

Soooooooooooo, if we can recreate something close to that bad on Earth, we'll have an answer for eradicating capital punishment! :wink:
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quinn1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jan, 2003 09:33 pm
Not all criminals are simple bruts. I think that in a situation such as this, if all put down at one time, with only their wits to survive, yes, they would come upon each other, some would join together and make some odd band of brothers, forming their own society and heirarchy, rules and regs, all that. The ones who did not want to conform to that would be loners who on occassion would come upon another one, or a group. Depending on how they set up their society, depends on the amount of brutality. We can certainly expect a higher degree than ours and it would probably be shocking for us, however, for them it could turn out to work just fine. It truely is interesting.
Should they be allowed medical care, some crazy doctor in the mix perhaps? Or even basic medicinal supplies? Good question. Dont know myself. Im thinking that this colony is equal in many ways to the properties of earth and with that scientific studies on it and the possibilities it could hold...give them a book with that information, and let them learn, survive, get by on what they can do with that.
Although the idea of shipping all the bad guys away sounds good/bad in a myriad of ways...I think some basics would be needed.
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