Anti War Movement

Ditto Phoenix, dyslexia. Your last post was helpful, by the way. I often argue by analogy, but when it is not analogous, someone needs to point that out.

Dyslexia, i certainly hope you do not feel that anything i've said disqualifies your opinions. I noted that you earlier stated you had spent 10 years in Saudia Arabia--i would expect that, if you had contact with the people of that nation on a regular basis, you have an informed opinion on their view point. I have been glad to see your posts here, and hope you will stay with us on such discussion, as all such discussions are impoverished by low levels of participation.

I come to this forum with 3 years experience living in Indonesia and 7 years traveling back and forth to Indonesia. I am telling you that country is a hot bed of radicalism and only now most people have recently become aware of - unfortunately.

Let me point out that this is the most populated Muslim country in the world being 125+ million people and 90%+ Islamic (this stats are old). The people are good people. But it does not take much to create radicalism.

Diatribe and cowboy attitudes of this administration foments hate in this region. These people take anything that is anti-Islam seriously. The gains of 20-30 years are lost in one battle, one speech, one cowboy move. It is they and their radical fringe that determines anti-Islamic rhetoric, not a half hearted voiced speech that is an after thought and appears to be contrived.

Believe me, the money spent on this war is much better serviced helping the poor, eliminating disease, cleaning squalor and talking diplomatically. What goes around comes around.

One of my oldest friends worked for the Saudi Arabian government in their Department of Munitions. It's necessary today to read what is being taught in the schools in Saudi Arabia about the U.S. --
although the Saudis claim it is isolated, their textbooks tell a different story.

Setanta

After reading your very diplomatic response to dyslexia I am prompted to enter a comment. Could your response to dyslexia have been prompted by some small pangs of guilt about your strident and emphatic remarks to Tantor? That exchange was not pleasant for anyone to observe. You and I have exchanged similar words before and I am now reluctant to enter into a discussion with you and it would seem that some share my feelings. I know that you take great pride in your debating skills which are abundant, but perhaps you do not realize that as soon as anyone shows any disagreement on any of your numerous views the tone of your comments rises to a "sneer" level. I suggest that someone of your obvious high intellectual level would immediately tone down their confrontational approach and instead adopt a more scholarly tone.

This is a serious attempt to clear the air and to say that I very much enjoy your learned discourse on many subjects but you just mentioned that we all suffer from the low levels of participation.
I sincerely hope you find these comments useful and not derogatory

I have the least feeling of guilt here, and i'm frankly amazed that you single me out. Both LW and Craven have laid into Tantor for the contents of his posts--do you feel the same way about them? At one point, Craven felt it necessary to issue a friendly warning, and LW responded to that--but you consider me the bad guy here. I bear you no grudge, nor do i agree with your assessment of my forensic style.

"This is nothing personal against you, Boss, you just are not sufficiently well-informed on the issues to make statements of that character with any assurance, although you may feel that you are. " -- this is the post which i originally made which set Tantor off. In his succeeding post, he states that he is well informed. Given the statement he had made concerning establishing a western-style democracy in Iraq, and the likely muslim response thereto, i would never have dreamed he considers himself well-informed on the muslim world. In this case, i would then have to assume that he is badly mis-informed; there is simply no way the scenario he describes will ever play out. We are deeply hated now in the muslim world, and if we attack Iraq, nothing we subsequently do there will lessen this--the attack will make the hatred more virulent, and make it much more difficult for anyone in the muslim world who would wish to support us. You'll note that i qualified my remark about him not being well informed by noting that he may believe he is. The point of that was my assumption that he writes what he does in good faith. However, he responds by labelling me a "dogmatic liberal." I've never mentioned his probable political affiliation, and don't consider it germaine. He claims to have been insulted--although i had tried to remove the sting from my surmise that he is not well-informed by stating that he probably believes he is--once again, an assumption on my part that he is writing in good faith. I am left with the conclusion that Tantor expects his writing to be taken as definitive, or he will assume that he has been insulted. He has never responded to the criticism of his remarks about implementing a western-style democracy in Iraq, and the likely results of such an effort. Instead, he has made remarks about "unwashed posters," and directly addressed me as "Kid," and tried to give me a lesson in showing respect. Does a show of respect require that one agree with him? I have no regrets here, and bear no ill-will toward you, nor toward Tantor. I avoid responding to your posts, and likely will take the same line with Tantor, because my experience teaches me that the likely response will be an attack based on assumptions about my political affiliations, my age and my patriotism. Who needs that?

I don't think, perception, that you can speak for all. At least, I, as the origiginal creator of this thread, didn't find it unpleasant - at least not unpleasant the way, you note it.

I must admit, however, reading some responses gives me the creep!

Setanta

I note your response with regret.

Well, please don't take it personally, Perception, i know precious little about you, and intend no character assassination in what i have written. As time is reputed to heal wounds, i doubt not that we can occupy the same threads and air our views without discord--i would certainly hope so.

peception, if you were in any way unbiased - then you could be taken seriously, I agree fully with Walter - "I don't think, perception, that you can speak for all." and Setanta, " I avoid responding to your posts, and likely will take the same line with Tantor, because my experience teaches me that the likely response will be an attack based on assumptions about my political affiliations, my age and my patriotism. Who needs that?"

Virtually every post Tantor makes is dripping with hate. Not all words have to be said - and he isn't the speaker for all or most. His facts are prefaced with words like it appears, it is mostly theory or this seems to be. Hardly a reasoning to make hatefilled statements about nameless people that justify nuking them from the earth. In his description of himself he glorfies Right Wing (excuse me, I didn't mean to use a derogatory, substitute "Conservative") as god like and Liberals as Evil. Nothing else needs to be said. We are all grownups and should be able to resist being constantly poked and proded, but it just eventually gets to you. Yes, many people went over the line - including Setanta - but I would for once just love to see a Conservative say they did something wrong!

Tantor - can I ask what evidence you have about the sky-jacking school in Iraq?

BillW - I would be very interested in any comments you have to make about Indonesia - although I do not imagine they belong on this thread - perhaps you might like to create one to discuss Indonesia? I am Australian - and we are VERY aware of Indonesia and the difficult potentials there, (especially after the Bali bombing) - Indonesia combining, as it does, a huge Islamic population in a climate of increasing hostility and friction between Moslems and non-Moslems, and all the complex feelings of a de-colonized nation, and a weak and probably unstable government.

Also - is it you, Dyslexia, who has lived in Saudi-Arabia? I would be fascinated to hear more of your views - perhaps a thread could be set up to look at the history and culture of islamic nations - I would be happy to set it up if the people here who know about this would like to discuss it........

I think that is a wonderful idea, Miss Bunny, i personally feel that most Americans are clueless about the muslim world, and the view that muslims take of the west in general, and Americans in particular . . .

I did not presuppose to speak for all-----I believe dyslexia indicated some reluctance to speak or at least seemed to think her remarks were ignored. Nor did I say that Tantor was without blame. I know he does not need me to defend him but he has just come Abuzz where this type of discourse is the operation of the day. I remember when I first came to this forum ---I made some very emphatic statements not always backed up with evidence. I have made some adjustments in my style---I hope for the better. At the same time I call for some degree of introspection for all participants.

I am here to learn -----not to have other peoples opinions shoved down my throat. Opinions are just that ----opinions. If any of us spoke only pure fact, I can only conclude that we would be publishing magnificent works of art, not wasting our time here.

It was all over the news about a year ago. Salman Pak is a place adjacent to an airfield not far from Baghdad. According to a defector report, the Iraqis run a skyjacking school there as part of a larger program in terrorist operations. The students there are strictly segregated from the rest of the camp but inevitably the two groups encounter each other by accident. The defector said that the students included many foreigners, including Saudis and Egyptians. Satellite photos show that a Russian airliner is parked there, probably to rehearse hijackings.

I suggest you go to Google and search for "Salman Pak" to learn more.

Tantor

ROFLMAO . . . good one, Boss . . . very good . . .

hi Oz-bunny- while i think it might be informative to have a thread about living in an Islamic country i really dont have any academic or professional knowledge (i did meet Ib'n Saud before he died and his son Faissil (sp) who gave me a tin of english toffee, my knowledge is limited to growing up in Saudi and my relations with arabs who i only knew as friends. this being the xmas season though i can relate a story about a Xmas in Saudi where the arabs helped us out with a nativity scene by bringing camels and donkeys to use for the setting.

I can only speak for Indonesian. These muslims are just like any other person in the world. By far the majority are helpful, loyal, friendly and love it when you pay attention to them. They love someone who treats them like an equal - which they are.

When they get around someone who foments violence, gets their blood boiling, creates another society as barbaric and one that insults their religion, well - it makes their blood boil. When other countries leaders fan the fires, they grab onto the hooks.

Boss, they are no different than you and I. They would tell me - your not like the rest of them. But, man could they ever get there hatred going-especially at Christians. These were the minorities. I even went to Ambon once (the original spice island-America was discovered looking for this island)-check it on a State Department watch list. It says - American, Christian; don't even think about going here. You know what, they told me-you know, you're not like the others (of course, they never met the others only heard about them).

Rhetoric is the name of the game, you know what - they are all good people, but the cause of peace has been pushed back 30 years because the fodder has been replenished.


PS - when I say they are all good, this applies to the average Joe.

This is basically the whole dump - don't need a full thread, unless you want to talk about the bar girls. Now that, I am an expert on. Ah, youth!

dlowan, I didn't address the Australian slant to this picture. Your alluding to Bali, and that is such a unbelievable irony.

Bali is 90% Hindu. Totally different culturally than everything north. These people are lovely, peaceful and easy going. Nothing like the frenzy that exists around the Muslims.

For the bombing to have occurred in Bali is a multi faceted terrorist action. Bali is my most favorite spots on the entire earth and I truly love the people. I weep openly !

With or without an Anti-War Movement, there is an escalating situation of global importance in progress. The potential for war approaches statistical certainty. History often moves at a glacier's pace, but there are avalanches from time to time, which tend to alter the course of the glacier. A glacier's progress can be predicted with a fair amount of certainty, but the avalanches introduce such uncertainty as exists. Of particular inconvenience about avalanches is that it can be necessary to wait for the dust to settle before the effect can be assessed.

Any US-Led military action directed toward Iraq will in short order and with few casualties, barring the deployment of weapons of mass destruction, achieve "Regime Change" in Iraq. If, God forbid, WMDs are used, the civilian toll will rise exponentially in proportion to military casualties. Western Military Might is quite sufficient to the task of achieving limited, clearly defined military goals against any individual Third World Nation. Unfortunately, purely military goals rarely complement or even permit effective settlement or resolution of the core disputes which led to the employment of military means in the first place.

The disintegration of The Balkans along ethnic, religious, ideologic, and tribal faultlines (to continue the "Avalanche Analogy") holds a disturbing lesson. The societal and cultural divisions of the people of The Middle East make The Balkans look positively stable. Power, and with it order, is a thing of most delicate balance in the region. As has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Clan and Tribal affilliations are often held above Nationalist sentiment. The "Nations" of which the Middle Easterner may find himself citizen are essentially Western Constructs, imposed on diverse ethno-cultural groups which have deepseated, longstanding differences, without regard to the societies affected by the arbitrary borders. The matter of "What is to become of The Ottoman Empire" has yet to be settled.

The real threat in this situation is widespread instability in the region, the collapse of governments, the fragmentation of nations, ongoing power struggles and alliegience shifts. I see no problem "Winning The War"; I see little reason to suspect we will be able to "Win The Peace". A US-Led military action against Iraq poses significant challenges to neighboring states. Many are caught in "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, having to choose between internal threat and external threat. Massive Civil Unrest, more Anti-US/UN than Anit-War, in our supposed "Client States" in the region has decided potential. A leader or party displaced by either internal or external power is equally entitled to and assured of all the inconvenience of having been foricbly deposed. There isn't much of a market for used dictatorial autocrats.

We risk tedious entanglement here, having implications for generations to come. Iraq is a distraction, PEACE is the issue. Unfortunately, humankind has proved great capacity for distraction. I think I hear an avalanche.



timber

Hear hear . . .